Episode 7: Adapt or Die

Gevvie Stone on the Pain Cave, Focusing on the Process, and the Superpower of Being a Perpetual Student

About This Episode

Today’s conversation was so much stinkin fun to have. My guest is 3x Olympian Gevvie Stone (@gevgevs). Gevvie, a native of the Boston area, is a three-time Olympic rower. She raced for the USA in the women's single at the London games (where she placed 7th) and 2016 in Rio, where she took home a silver medal. She will represent the USA in the women's double in the upcoming 2021 Olympics in Tokyo. 

She’s also represented the USA at a variety of levels, including two Under-23 World Championships and six senior national teams, including nine World Cups and four World Championships. She studied history at Princeton University before graduating from Tufts University School of Medicine in 2014. Just in case you missed it, yes that’s correct, she completed medical school IN BETWEEN two trips to the Olympics. She has completed the first year of her emergency medicine residency at the Beth Israel-Deaconess Hospital in Boston and has been taking a leave of absence to train for Tokyo.

In this episode we touch on everything from the evolution of her performance mindset to her approach to pre-race imagery. You’ll also notice her twin superpowers throughout the conversation, the first being her capacity for motivational flexibility and the second being her skill at listening and being open to the next opportunity to learn, grow, and improve.

Links and Resources

Endure: Mind, Body, and The Curiously Elastic Limits of Human Endurance - Alex Hutchinson

Episode Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

rowing, feel, visualizing, erg, recovery, moment, win

Gevvie Stone  00:00

If it's not close, you're gonna win. You're never going to grow, you're never. It's just, if it's guaranteed it's too easy. It's not anywhere near as satisfying. And the great thing about having fast competition is that it makes me faster.

Pete Kadushin  00:25

Welcome to the mental training lab. I'm Pete Kadushin, your host and my job is to have fun conversations that leave you with actionable tools, little experiments that will help you improve your mindset and mental skills so that you can do the things you love at a higher level. Today's conversation was so much stinking fun to have. My guest today is none other than Gevvie Stone. Gevvie, a native of the Boston area is a three time Olympic Rower. She raced for the USA in the women's single at the London Games, where she placed seventh and 2016 in Rio, where she took home a silver medal. She'll represent the USA in the women's double in the upcoming 2021 Olympics in Tokyo. And she's represented the USA in a variety of levels as well, including two U23 World Championships and six senior national teams, including nine World Cups and four World Championships. She studied history at Princeton University before graduating from Tufts University School of Medicine in 2014. Just in case you missed it. Yes, that's correct. She completed medical school in between trips to the Olympics. She's completed her first year of emergency medicine residency at the Beth Israel Deaconess Hospital in Boston, and has been taking a leave of absence to train for Tokyo. In this episode, we touch on everything from the evolution of her performance mindset to her approach to pre race imagery. You'll also notice her twin superpowers throughout the conversation, the first being her capacity for motivational flexibility, and the second being her skill at listening and being open for the next opportunity to learn, grow, and improve. You're really gonna love this conversation. And so let's not drag this intro out any longer. It's showtime. Gevvie, welcome to the mental training lab. Really excited to have you here.

Gevvie Stone  02:05

Thanks for having me. Good to be here.

Pete Kadushin  02:08

To jump right in. We were on a roundtable just about a month ago. And I remember you talking a little bit about the difference between being in the single skulls and then competing in doubles. And specifically that there's a certain quality of darkness in terms of mindset. You kind of got to go to a place when you're alone in the boat. And so I'm wondering if you could tell me a little bit more about the difference in mindset there.

Gevvie Stone  02:32

It's funny, I don't ever remember saying darkness because I do as different as they are, I love both of them. I do think mentally approaching races, in particular, there is a difference about being alone in an activity versus having a teammate or a team. And in the single, you're doing it for whatever reason you come up with, really. For me a lot of my career, I felt like the underdog and I had something to prove. And so I was battling against those demons of former coaches and teams I've been cut from and all the rest to prove that I could go fast. In a team boat, it's entirely different, because you're doing it for someone else much more than you're doing it for yourself. And every stroke of every race in a team boat, in the back of my head is don't let that person down. Like they're giving it their all, you're gonna give your all to. And I think that's something that appeals to people who don't know anything about rowing, when they see usually eight person boats, that's the most commonly rode boat, I would say, especially among juniors and collegiate athletes in the US. And when they're eight people in a boat, you can't stop, you're not going to let any of those people down. And there is something very special about the necessity of teamwork in that situation.

Pete Kadushin  04:02

Yeah I mean, even just a little bit of shifting off rhythm, and that could mean let alone just stopping rowing, which wouldn't happen. Right? But if you if you unsink for a moment, right, chaos ensues.

Gevvie Stone  04:14

Yeah, no, you can't, you gotta just keep doing what the person in front of you is doing. And the double, the kind of a cross between an eight and a single in that an eight you can slightly hide because if the boat starts slowing down there are eight variables. In a double, it's you and another person. And so it's a cross between being exposed and having that teamwork and that great peer pressure in terms of motivation to leave it all out there.

Pete Kadushin  04:46

When I have to imagine the the connection because the variables are isolated. It's just you and one other person that that connection might feel stronger because it's it's just the two of you? But I don't know. I'm curious.

Gevvie Stone  04:59

I think the relationship in the double is more important than any particular relationship in an eight. As terrible as it is to say, I mean, relationships are obviously important in an eight, you have to trust one another. But in the double, it's like a relationship. I mean, I've definitely had friends who grow double that say, it's like a marriage. Communication and trust and the other person are just, they're critical. You have to know that your partner is also doing everything within her control and that relies on trust.

Pete Kadushin  05:41

And you don't always have to like the other person in there. But you do have to love them, like their family?

Gevvie Stone  05:47

You have to have a great working relationship. I'm lucky now because I have a person I like. So, life is good.

Pete Kadushin  05:54

When both of those lineup it's perfect. And I have to imagine that you in any race are going pretty deep into the pain cave. It sounds like the drive to get deep into the pain cave is different depending on if you're by yourself or you're with the group.

Gevvie Stone  06:11

Yes, I think rowing is funny. So you hit your lactate threshold, they say about 40 seconds into the race. And in a double, the race is about seven minutes and in the single are a little under, in the singles a little over. So you've six minutes, let's say of pain, and you kind of throw yourself in and for the first minute of pain, at the start too much is happening to really even think about pushing through it. But it's that middle of the race. So rowing is 2000 meters, the second and third quarter of the race where you are aware of the pain and mentally giving yourself reasons to push through it. And I think that is where it helps to have someone in the boat with you for that peer pressure and doing it for them and not just yourself. When I was a single, I did find it helpful to think about all the people I trained with. I was really lucky to have a great team of masters guys who chose to come out and train with me leading up to the London and Rio Olympics. And I push through the middle of the race thinking about their support and imagining them helping me along. Don't I mean, not don't want them down. But because it's kind of a negative way to think about it. But I swear it felt more positive than that, to that effect.

Pete Kadushin  07:32

But still feeling drawn to push yourself a little bit further and a little bit harder for not just yourself but others. And I, I'm familiar with the negative, the super negative style. You know, I remember being in high school and running track. And I wasn't fast, but I was trying to empty the tank every time I was out there. And just thinking to myself, you know, this is for that person who said something funny to me and for that wrestling match that I lost and that girl who wouldn't go out with me. And I just beat the crap out of myself trying to squeeze every last ounce of the pain into the whole experience.

Gevvie Stone  08:08

Well, there's definitely some of that too. Like this is for the coach that didn't think that I was good enough. And this is for whoever's beaten me before and is not going to beat me now. Or, this is for the girl who has never beat me in today is definitely not gonna be the first day she does.

Pete Kadushin  08:21

Definitely not the day and and so I guess what standing out to me is the the flexibility that you can switch between sources of motivation, depending on what's going to juice you up the most in that moment or what you need to get you through the second quarter so that you can make it to the third quarter.

Gevvie Stone  08:40

Yeah, I think that's a good point. A lot depends on what type of race it is, domestic versus international, heats versus finals. And I mean, who I'm racing. And so there are certain things that kind of came to me during every race, like thinking about those guys that I rode with. I always thought about that going into last 500 of every race, because some of them have mean sprints. And it's like, come on, this is where you dig deep. This is where you do it for the guys. And when I race head of the Charles in Boston, there are certain landmarks that it's really easy. Like when I go past my high school boathouse, obviously, I think about the support from my high school team, because that's a very direct connection.

Pete Kadushin  09:27

Yeah.

Gevvie Stone  09:29

And sometimes it's things that I've thought about before when I was visualizing a race, and occasionally it's not, I would say.

Pete Kadushin  09:42

I have so many questions. I've got a big smile on my face, because these are the types of conversations I love to have. Before we dive further into visualization and those anchor points, and then certainly I'm always curious about the pain cave. I guess, backing things up. I also really love to understand the arc of your experience and how you've gotten to where you are right now. And so if you had to write chapter titles or section titles, what would a few of the, the significant ones be as we chart the arc from where you were to where you are now?

Gevvie Stone  10:20

That's a great question. And it's a tough question. I think it's easy to break up the beginning years, in that in high school, you're learning about it. And everything leading up to rowing with me, probably would have been titled, avoiding rowing, or something to that sort, because my parents both rode and I didn't want to do what they did. And then I realized that I was never going to be a good ball athlete and came to rowing. And found that not only did I love it because of the teamwork aspect, but it's also easier to love things that you're good at, and was fortunate to have success early on and just keeps the ball rolling. Not the physical ball, because ball sports were abandoned. And in college, it's easy to make that another chapter. My college coach, I was thinking about this yesterday, probably title this chapter harder because my college coach was the person who taught me how to push my own limits. And that the limits are intangible. I mean, you reach one goal, and you set another and you can always go harder. I mean, she would be up and down the course in her launch on the megaphone, harder, harder, harder. And frequently, it felt like it was directed right at me. And I do think that that I wouldn't be the rower I am without that, without learning how to not only how to go harder, but how to want to go harder with her coaching. And then I tried out for Beijing and I didn't make it. And that chapter would probably be, you learn more from failures, part one, because there's a part two and part three and part four. With a subtitle that I needed to believe in myself, before success was a possibility. I don't think I ever really believed that I was fast enough when I joined the Olympic Training Center. And if I don't believe it, it's not going to happen. That's the first step to failure thinking that it could happen doesn't guarantee success. But thinking that it's going to fail pretty much guarantees that I will

Pete Kadushin  12:54

Yeah, yeah.

Gevvie Stone  12:58

And then I got to row, come back to Boston, start med school and started rowing the single and I think all that lead up to London was learning to love the single. And it was a process and there were a lot of failures. And nothing about success is a linear upward slope, much more of a roller coaster. So there are teams that I made, and then teams I didn't make and then teams I made and then didn't qualify for the Olympics. And London was incredible. I mean, it was all about the experience. And then in the next four leading into Rio would be titled something about performance. I, London was about the experience and Rio was about performance. I was an Olympian, I had checked that box. And the reason I returned is not only because I loved it, but also because I knew I could get faster and thought that I could potentially be on the podium, which happened in Rio, and within rowing in terms of the physiologic aspects of it, but also outside in terms of maximizing nutrition and sleep and recovery and really doing everything I could to achieve that goal. And then I'm still doing it. So there's another four years and I think this four years was something about the process and loving the process. I one of the reasons I came back to it or thought about coming back to it is I was giving a talk to elementary students in the fall of 2016. And I talked about why I returned for Rio was that I loved it and was still getting faster and a second grader raised her hand and said, it sounds like you still love it and you're still getting faster. Why are you stopping now? It's a really insightful eight year old, seven year old and I was stumped. I didn't have an answer. And it really did keep me thinking, am I ready to stop? And I returned to it because, I mean, I love racing, but we don't get to race much. And mostly, I love the process and thought that I was getting faster. And that was it. I have gotten faster. Things haven't worked out the way I thought again, so they're always failures. Adapt or die might be the subtext of the chapter. I'm in the double now, which is never where I thought it would be when I took the time off for residency. But it's been its own experience. And I've learned from it, and I'm having a lot of fun right now. So, you know, the US has another very fast single skull, and I'm going to Tokyo, and we'll see, the goal is still the podium.

Pete Kadushin  15:54

Yeah, yeah. I, every time I ask this question, I have no idea what to expect. And then I'm always, like, humbled and curious, as people share their story. What, what stands out is the sort of the beats that you're able to break this into the, the going harder, but also wanting to go harder. Because you can empty the tank and not want it and it's a recipe for burnout. And the fact that you've had not just a long career, but a long, elite career. You have to have that want and that that desire, the joy, the it's got to still be fun. And that it wasn't until after that, that there was a sense of well, I ought to believe in myself, because if I don't, and you you said it so well. Believing in yourself doesn't guarantee right, but not believing in yourself. I mean, you're putting yourself you might as well start 500 meters behind everybody else. And then the the evolution of your your Olympic experience and being at the top of your craft, but always recognizing that there's new opportunities, whether it's sleep, recovery, nutrition, and then where you are now, embracing the process. This is the hardest thing that I do when it comes to working with athletes is like, if you do all of these things, the outcome will show up, or at least you're giving yourself the best opportunity. But we're so tied to the outcome that it's really hard to open up our hand and let go of that experience.

Gevvie Stone  17:32

Yeah, I think so I lost single trials. I mean, I've lost single trials before. I lost the first single trials that I thought I could win in 2019. The other ones had been during residency or school when I shouldn't have won them because I wasn't training at the full time level. And winning in 2019 was really hard. Even though I was still coming back to it and hadn't been training very long. In 20, this year, it was still very hard. But for entirely different reasons. Because I was lucky enough to have had a great race. And it still wasn't enough to win. And the wonderful thing that comes with experience is you get a lot of chances to reflect on things like this and talk to kids. And I think the thing I emphasize, I try to emphasize when I talk to junior teams is exactly you're saying like it's all about the process. It's all about your own personal measurements of results, but not about the numerical outcome. And I can't say that without living it. And so, you know, that was what happened. And one of the very wise coaches in the rowing world came up to me and said exactly the same thing. He said, you can have a great race and it doesn't guarantee the desired outcome. And that's sport, and that's why we keep doing it.

Pete Kadushin  19:05

And oh, see that. I try and use that as leverage and people like, I'll just have athletes stare me down, like let's shut up that's dumb. Of course. I want to know I'm gonna win before I get out there and be like, but the joy that

Gevvie Stone  19:17

But that would be fun.

Pete Kadushin  19:19

Exactly.

Gevvie Stone  19:20

So I was in a boat that knew I was gonna win in 2006. In 2006, I was in a crew for Princeton and our closest race during the regular season I think was 23 seconds for something

Pete Kadushin  19:31

Oh my God.

Gevvie Stone  19:32

We won NCAA's by 11 seconds. We had open water, I think after, before 500 meters. It wasn't close. None of our races were close. And the most rewarding race I had with that boat was not NCAA, which is a big deal. It wasn't Ivy's or any of those things. It was a scrimmage against the guys and we weren't supposed to beat them and we did, and it was actually close. And we got to push ourselves because there it's close. I mean, you only realize your own boundaries when they're being pushed. And if it's not close, you're gonna, you're never gonna grow, you're never. It's just, it's guaranteed it's too easy. It's not anywhere near as satisfying. And the great thing about having fast competition is that it makes me faster.

Pete Kadushin  20:28

And it's the uncertainty that I think particularly at the highest level, that extra sort of buzz of energy, because you don't know. And a lot of athletes will talk about it as nerves or anxiety or excitement, or all of that mashed together. But like, at the highest level, you channeled that back into the boat. And that makes you go just a little bit faster than you thought you could or push a little bit longer when you thought you couldn't. And for me, that becomes one of the highest points of leverage for athletes who are working their way up, when it comes to mental skills, is really being excited about, hey, you know what the competition's equal or pretty close and we're not sure how this is going to turn out. Oh, yeah, that's good, extra tasty today.

Gevvie Stone  21:14

And then it makes the victory that much sweeter.

Pete Kadushin  21:16

Yes.

Gevvie Stone  21:16

And if you don't win, and you can walk away saying you had a great performance, then hold your head high.

Pete Kadushin  21:24

And so you've set it up so that you can win either way, right? You either outright win the race, or you've done your best, you have tons that you can learn. And like, I want to be straightforward here. Like I love to win. I'm super competitive. And I've just found a way to balance that with a relentless focus on the process. Rather than being caught up in like, did I win these board games against my family?

Gevvie Stone  21:49

And I do think that's why being the underdog is such a fun position to hold. Because you expect things of yourself in those situations. But there's no external pressure that expects it of you. And that was something I was always the underdog in any close race all the way through Rio. And that was so fun, because I got to surprise some people and win or not win, but medal at a few races. And that's always fun. And it was definitely an adjustment going into this quadrennial when all of a sudden, people expect me to be fast.

Pete Kadushin  22:33

So what's extra exciting, then is the in response to that there was a deepening of your commitment to the process or appreciation for the process. And of course, it's not linear. So it wasn't like extra expectations. And then you were like, nevermind, it's all about the process. But that's where you are now. Right where you've arrived.

Gevvie Stone  22:54

Yeah. I mean, I think that if I hadn't made that, been able to look at it that way, then I'd be a very unhappy person right now. And that's not fair to me, but more importantly, it's not fair to I mean, the rest of the US team and my teammates, because I'm not the fastest person in the country. But I'm the second fastest person in the country when I'm still representing the country and in a boat with someone else whose representing the country. And yeah, you just, it's not fair to anyone, if you get caught too caught up in the negatives and what you could have done.

Pete Kadushin  23:38

You've just got the coolest way of shifting scale and scope based on what you need in the moment itt sounds like. Right, that when you need to be hyper, sort of focused on your experience, and in the pain cave, and drawing from that underdog, that person didn't believe in me mentality. Like you can go there. And then when it's no longer useful, it's just like, scale out, zoom out. We're like, is this good for my teammates? Is it good for the person I'm rowing with? Is it good for my country? Right, all of that.

Gevvie Stone  24:14

That's always fast and easy. I mean, my parents would be the first ones to tell you that I'm a terrible loser. It takes a few days of going into my quiet area into some solitude.

Pete Kadushin  24:28

I'm so now I'm super curious. Tell me more, please.

Gevvie Stone  24:31

Well, I mean, it started I remember the first time I was away. I mean, I probably have never been a good loser. I don't think it's an easy trait to have. Or a gracious loser you should say. And I remember being at Henley, a race in England, with my team and it's funny because we raced and yeah, we we didn't, I was like, no, I won when I went in high school, we didn't win in college. And we lost in the final to both that maybe we should have lost. I mean, it was the Stanford varsity four and we were the Princeton freshmen four so we were the underdogs. But I think I felt we had not reached our full potential or had our best race. And I did not want to talk to any of my teammates. After that race, I remember my parents saying something to my coach, like, oh, no, just give her some space for a little bit of time. You don't want to hear anything she has to say right now. And being aware that it I mean, when you put when you invest the energy and time and passion into something, the way I have been to rowing, even if you have a great performance, it's hard not to have a desired outcome. I can say it now of whatever two months after single trials, three months after single trials, I have won the double trials. And it's much easier to do than 10 minutes after the race. Because it's never easy. I mean, when you care about something deeply, and have worked hard to obtain it, it's it's, yeah, it's another challenge when you don't get what you want, when you don't win.

Pete Kadushin  26:35

Yeah, I think we do a terrible job at this, not just with athletes, but humans in general, is failing to honor sort of the full palette of the emotional experience. Like, it makes sense that if you have busted your ass, and invested a ton of time and energy and sweat and pain into a goal, and you don't get the goal that you should be frustrated and disappointed and have an emotional experience that's in magnitude related to how badly you wanted it. And that that doesn't have to be a big deal that doesn't, there's nothing wrong. And then it's really about then helping young athletes, aspiring athletes, human beings learn how to move through that in a way that makes them more resilient, makes them better performers, and then better teammates, better friends and family. And it sounds like you've been able to reflect on those experiences and, and been able to grow as a reflector or evaluator of your experience.

Gevvie Stone  27:35

And I've had people to help me do that. It's definitely not something that I've done alone. And sometimes it's random things like the kid in the second grade audience, or when I didn't make the Beijing team, I felt like a total failure because everyone had kind of my whole life I had made the boat I was supposed to make and won the races I was supposed to win and had setbacks along the way. I had knee surgery and this and that, but nothing had never set my mind on a goal and failed to achieve it in the way that I failed to make the team for Beijing. And I saw myself as a total failure for not making it and in order to recover, had an opportunity to go back and be a counselor at the summer camp that I went to. I had gone as a camper. I had gone in as an aide as we call it, and then had been a counselor early in college, taken a few years off to row during the summers and returned in the summer to me. And, the point of the story is that the campers were amazed that I had been fast enough to try out for the Olympics. And that had never even crossed my mind because it was expected. Like everything I'd done up to that point. I had been in that boat that won in eight I had been in the boats at under 23's. So it was just a step in the process. And of course I was going to try out for the Olympics because that's the trajectory I was on. But to have the campers rephrase it, as wow, you tried out for the Olympics was incredibly helpful in terms of how I have tried to reframe things since then. I think, turns out that having kids and teens around really helps put everything into perspective. And then my parents have been incredibly supportive and have been through a lot of the same things on their own as elite rowers, are both coaches, and are always incredibly helpful sounding boards. In terms of reflecting and where to go from here, and then the teammates I've had

Pete Kadushin  29:45

You make it sound like this is just a natural thing that like kids ask questions. And by the way, I'm going to find that seven year old and hire her or him to write my podcast questions because like perfect You have to be tuned into that. And there's a reason why beginner's mind is something that shows up more frequently and in the sport psychology world, because being able to see with new eyes, something that you're so deeply in, can give you that shift in perspective that goes like oh, so I am really fast. And even though I don't feel great right now, I'm still really fast and only getting faster. Yeah.

Gevvie Stone  30:29

Yeah, and listening to this not just the little kids. But the I think paying attention might be as you're saying, the key of it to pay attention what the little kids are saying, and I've been on panels with other elite athletes and rowers, and sometimes things they say just stick out and make a huge impact. And there have been moments where something that another rower has said, has changed kind of how I think about the stroke or rowing. And I think I think you're right, that it's listening. Maybe more than anything else.

Pete Kadushin  31:05

This is a sneaky superpower, and one that usually gets swept under the rug. And it but your ability to be open and curious, because people are saying, they're pearls of wisdom being dropped everywhere all day, right? And your ability to be curious enough to look for them or at least be open when they arrive. And then there has to be a system for integrating that into either your technical skill or physical skill, your recovery skills, mental skills. And so in terms of being an expert learner, and I think that elite athletes have to be, right. I think that maybe that's one of your superpowers.

Gevvie Stone  31:45

I am a perpetual student athlete in terms of being a student athlete in high school or college,med school, residency. So I have taken student athlete really to the next level,

Pete Kadushin  31:58

As far out as it can go, right. I wonder, you know, we've been right at the heart of mental skills and mindset for the whole conversation. Are there any skills for the in between your ears stuff that you feel like have been particularly useful as your career has unfolded?

Gevvie Stone  32:19

Yeah, I think we mentioned a little bit the importance of confidence and believing you can do it. I think it's funny, my college boyfriend wrote his, we had to do a thesis at Princeton, he was a psych major. And he did his thesis on people before an erg, and just doing the erg, and then he had like a statement for them to read, a positive self talk and then doing the erg. And unsurprisingly, they all performed better when they read the positive self talk statement. And I heard that there and then I've heard it a number of places since and I think that is something I do consciously work on and think about, in terms of, when I'm sitting on that start line, I always take big, big, deep breaths, look at the finish line and say, this is 2000 meters, like you've done this before. You can do this and have fun. And I try to, it's all positive and it's a you can do this mentality. And when I'm in that pain cave, thinking about everyone else, this and that it's always you can do this. I mean, do it for them, you can do this. And I really think that that is something that needs to be like constantly nurtured, because it's easy to slip out of whether it's during a piece or for a training block. But I think that working on positive self talk, and I don't usually say it out loud, it's all in my own head.

Pete Kadushin  34:00

Yeah.

Gevvie Stone  34:02

And repeating something, the idea of, I can do this.

Pete Kadushin  34:09

And I'm curious, your thoughts. Because there's positive self talk, and then there's like, butterflies and rainbows. I feel great. I feel great. I'm 100% right now, kind of fantasyland positive self talk. And I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on whether or not they're both useful, whether some are more useful than others?

Gevvie Stone  34:32

I think that there are things that are unpleasant. They're a part of racing, we were talking before about the butterflies and feeling nervous. And I think every time I get extremely nauseous before races, and every time I get nauseous, I remind myself that that's because of adrenaline and it means that I'm ready. And I think that it is that a reframing and a term of rainbows if I thought about it concretely, I would say this is nausea. But the my brain also knows that I'm not lying to myself when I say that it's because of adrenaline. And it means that my body is going into fight or flight mode and that I'm ready to compete. So I think that there's the just undescriptive, like I can do this. There's the reframing, which is what I do with nerves. And I mean, I think there are times when you just when I have to lie to myself, there are times when I've woken up and felt crummy, and you have to have a hard practice. And their day, those are the days that are sometimes the most satisfying in the end, because you can talk your way out of it. I've had practices where I'm tired, I'm fatigued. And I'm driving to the boathouse saying, gosh, I'm really tired. But from the moment I get there I have to turn it around and tell myself that it doesn't matter. I'm capable of doing this. And usually, it helps me to break it down into smaller pieces. So I'm capable of doing one piece and then I'm capable of doing two pieces and then capable in two pieces. And even within the first piece, I'm capable of pushing this first 500 meters, and I'm capable of second 500 meters. And so I guess I don't ever tell myself, oh, I feel great, this is the best day ever. But I do try to reframe things, in the I can do this attitude. Because I can. And that's the amazing thing about the human body. I think there are certain times where I've been reading books about people who have endured so much more than I ever will. I and the human body. It's incredible. And so much of what we do is in our mind, and I think, I suppose lying to myself, reframing everything in a truthful, but positive manner, I think is it's how I'd like to put it.

Pete Kadushin  37:05

Shoot you, well, there are moments where you say what I'm thinking, and it feels like it was scripted. This is the exact sort of defining line that I draw when it comes to self talk. And it's why I hate fake it till you make it. Because I like the idea that the actual process of it might still look the same, but you're not faking anything. Like I feel terrible today, and I can do this. As opposed to you know what, I feel great. I'm not sick, I'm not fatigued, everything is, is wonderful, the sun's shining. Because your body and your mind know when you're lying.

Gevvie Stone  37:41

On the flipside of that, I do think there are times, especially on the erg, the rowing machine, but also during races, where I know that it hurts a lot. And I've had coaches, I wrote distinctly about the U23 camp, a coach asked me what I thought about during a piece. And I said, it doesn't hurt. I tell myself that it hurts only a fraction of the pain that I'm able to tolerate. And I can take more. So I guess I'm saying it hurts a little bit. But I'm not saying this hurts a lot. I'm like, oh, yeah, but this is nothing. This is nothing compared to what my body would handle. And the coach said, oh, no, no, that's wrong. You should say, this hurts a lot and I embrace it because I love pain. But, but I don't love. Who loves that? I mean, some people do. I'm not one of them. So I think everyone has their own way of handling things mentally and for me. So yeah, I'm lying to myself a little bit and saying, oh, on a scale of one to 10, this is a one. It's probably not a one that's probably more like five or six.

Pete Kadushin  38:46

You just changed the scale for yourself.

Gevvie Stone  38:48

But I just changed the scale.

Pete Kadushin  38:50

And again, it if you come back to that idea of being able to push your limits, and that whatever feels like a hard limit is is probably something that we've made up for ourselves, whether it's physiological or otherwise. And so being able to go like, this is actually a one even though it feels like a five.

Gevvie Stone  39:12

I mean, I think going back to what we were saying about recovery scores and bands earlier. So the tracker I use asks every morning, how intense was your workout yesterday, on a scale of one to 10? And there's one workout we do that is definitely the hardest workout we do all year. And the whole team acknowledges that it is the hardest workout we do. We do we it four or five times a year. And that's a six for me. It's the hardest workout I do, period. So like maybe it should be a 10. But every time I do that workout, I put it on as a six. And everything's in reference to that because there's got to be something harder that I could do if I needed to.

Pete Kadushin  39:55

Yeah, absolutely. And there's a book hanging over my shoulder. Endure, by Alex Hutchinson.

Gevvie Stone  40:01

I read it. Yeah.

Pete Kadushin  40:03

And it points directly at this idea that I mean, I think the subtitle is the curiously elastic limits of human endurance. And yeah, whatever feels like a 10. It's not a 10. And so you've just built that into your evaluation system, and allowed yourself again, it's that scope and scale that you're able to do with and the flexibility that you can bring to it. So I'm still convinced that you're not lying to yourself at any of these points that you're using positive self talk. Yes. And for me, I'm curious if this tracks for you, the the value of self talk is that it's shining a light on what's more productive to pay attention to. Right? So you could go, oh, that that's nausea. And that would be equally true, but not not helpful. And so self talk is just simply telling your mind because your mind is like a puppy, right? You need to tell your mind where to look and it'll look there. If you don't tell your mind where to look, it's gonna be up on the table eating your Cheerios. And so that's really what you're doing with self talk. Does that feel accurate for you?

Gevvie Stone  41:10

Yeah, absolutely.

Pete Kadushin  41:12

And so that's a big piece. And is it something that you think through in advance? Or is it something that you just kind of cultivate through all the hours training, and then it's ready when you get to competition?

Gevvie Stone  41:26

I think there are times when I use it, like before I race when it's become part of my pre race routine. And almost rituals, I would say, and I know that it's gonna happen, and I know what I'm gonna say to myself. And there are times when it's entirely spontaneous, depending on and sometimes it's spontaneous in the second. I mean, when you're rowing and get buffeted by wind, and you weren't expecting it, I mean, you need, I can row through this. And you need it there in that moment, and you weren't expecting that I wasn't expecting the wind. And it's entirely spontaneous. But it's the habit of doing it at this point, has become ingrained in how I approach rowing.

Pete Kadushin  42:14

Yeah, I think, again, coming back to a flexibility of approach where like, rather than visualizing every part of the race, and then being stuck in that visualization, and if it doesn't go exactly that way, because I've had athletes who have that rigid sense of confidence, or belief. And instead being able to have the habit of framing things positively, of affirming yourself and your belief in yourself, I can do this. I can row through this. That it, it's flexible, and it's resilient. But it's also there so that you don't have to like spend extra energy thinking about it. Because you need all the energy you can to row fast. Visualization came up as well. And that's, that's a big one for you, too?

Gevvie Stone  43:00

Yeah, we started visualizing, or I started visualizing in high school, my mom was my coach, and she would have the coxswain walk us through the races. And we would close our eyes and it would take whatever six or seven minutes exactly how long the race would and the coxswain call the race, exactly as she would call it the day of. I mean, probably not exactly because you can't anticipate whether teams are going to do. But to an extent that in rowing, you're not just racing one boat, so it's not entirely reactive. You're racing, another five boats typically. And you can't react to all five boats and when they lose, and there are cases in which it feels like a duel, despite having six boats in the course it's really a battle between two boats and then you do have to race a reactive race, but in general, especially high school level, you're racing six boats, and so the coxswain would sit us down and close our eyes and we'd imagine doing that race together. And it's something that we did in college, my college team, I think it's pretty common is my suspicion among junior and collegiate athletes. I when I volunteer coach for a year, I had my crews do it as well. And I adopted that practice into when I raced the single, and I close my eyes and I imagined the race. And early on, I was surprised and it's still true, but I'm not as surprised about it. I'm pretty good at getting close to seven minutes. And it takes me about the same amount of time as it would take me to row a race. It's not perfect, but I'm not done visualizing the race in two minutes. And I'm not done visualizing the race and four and I'm definitely not in 10. It's somewhere around the amount of time it would take to do a race because I do visualize. Sometimes I try to imagine what people around me will be doing but you can't anticipate that. What you can visualize is, especially in rowing, is the starting sequence and that stays the same and you know what you're going to do and you've planned to do it so the first minutes easy, and you count the strokes in your head and then I mean, that's spoken for. And then imagine it because it's broken up into 500 meter chunks. And then you break those up into certain landmarks and certain things that you want to be thinking about whether it's technical or motivational. It ends up being pretty close to a race.

Pete Kadushin  45:19

Yeah. And do you see yourself from behind your own eyes? Or do you see it like, the camera out above you, watching you row? Or both?

Gevvie Stone  45:31

I'm always from behind my own eyes. And I think that's actually something I do when I'm trying to make changes. And I, when I fall asleep at night, I just try to visualize being on that seat and making the change whether it's being a little bit lighter with the right hand, or pushing a little earlier with the legs. And I think imagining it helps. I mean they've done studies on amateur players, and there was the basketball players, right. And they had people imagine shooting hoops, and they had people actually shooting hoops. And it turns out that at the beginner level, you actually need to shoot hoops. Because you don't have the hand-mind memory.

Pete Kadushin  46:13

That's right.

Gevvie Stone  46:14

But when you get to the amateur and above level like that, it's slightly experienced, the visualization helps almost as much as actually doing it. And I do think that it helps me to imagine doing it correctly. Yeah, ingrain those habits. And it's less physically exhausting. I mean, I couldn't row physically, as often as I think about it.

Pete Kadushin  46:39

Yeah. What's interesting is that I think it's a sport specific thing. And so a lot of the rowers, I know, are, that's just sort of par for the course. The visualization comes with the experience. When I used to teach, I would ask a roomful of athletes, I'd be like, well, who here uses imagery or visualization? You get like, two or three people raise their hand. And then I'd have to ask, well, who here is daydreaming? And then you get a bunch of people and go, alright, well, you know how to use imagery, then we just need to start doing it on purpose.

Gevvie Stone  47:12

So yeah, it's definitely something that is taught to young rowers. And I think, because it's so prevalent and junior growing, it's why it's so prevalent among all rowing, because it's part of what you learn about how to be an athlete.

Pete Kadushin  47:25

The other thing that stands out, and is that there's sort of a no increment that's too small for you to break things down into. And this is a push that I make with a lot of the athletes I work with, it's like, if the, the whole practice feels like it's too much, or the whole piece feels, and I said, look, if you get down to one second, like, you know, you can take care of one second. And then you get the eye roll, and I go, no, but really, if you took care of this second, and the next second, and the second after that, you'd have a pretty good practice or pretty good performance, right. And it, it's just getting the courage to feel like the you can't put the bar too low in terms of how small the increment, while still maintaining full engagement and full investment, full energy.

Gevvie Stone  48:09

I think rowing lends itself very well to that in that it's easy to count strokes. And I can only count the 10 during a hard piece or race without having to start at one again, because my mental abilities are stretched thin at that point. And getting into the double digits is tricky. I know people that have count to 70, or other high numbers, and I just can't wrap my head around it. But I count to ten and then I start at one again. And I don't count every stroke in a race. But if I'm trying to think about something or focus or pushing through something. I mean, the strokes are, I mean when you're racing less than two seconds. And so each stroke is a quantifiable, but completable period of time.

Pete Kadushin  48:59

Yeah, I mean, the it's a cliche for the reason, one step at a time or one stroke at a time, right. And they're helpful as long as they're put into practice.

Gevvie Stone  49:09

Yep. And I had one practice, I didn't, that always comes to me, too, in college when we were doing three minute pieces, which is a weird distance, but it was, and we didn't know how many were doing. We were doing sets of seven. And they were three minutes long. We had no idea how many sets we were doing. So we just kept doing three minute pieces. And I remember going and one of my teammates just saying you can survive three minutes. Just think about this three minutes. Any person can survive three minutes. And that's what I think about whenever any piece is longer than three, let's just do three minutes and then do three minutes again. Anyone, I can survive three minutes, it's just three minutes.

Pete Kadushin  49:52

You have the again like this database of experience to, right, you talked about it as your rowing pastoral boathouse, right, that there are these moments, visual triggers or experiential triggers that allow you to then connect back to something that then juices you back up and gives you the energy to push through a challenging moment. That's super cool.

Gevvie Stone  50:15

The one or maybe maybe only benefit of being an old elite athlete.

Pete Kadushin  50:21

Is the experience. Yeah. The wily veteran. So I have two questions left. The first is, because I'm always interested in getting better myself. And then obviously helping others improve. If I was going to level up my my mind and my mental skills, what would be like the your go to strategy. What would make me a better athlete starting today?

Gevvie Stone  50:51

Gosh, we've talked about a lot of the things in terms of believing in yourself. And I think that starts with setting goals that are achievable. And then you the goals can get bigger and bigger. I think having fun in the process, which we've also talked about. I think, especially at the elite level, it can be like a job. And it never should feel like a job. Because you need to invest or I feel like I need to invest so much more emotional energy into it than just simply a nine to five thing. I think about it when I go to bed. I think about it when I wake up. And I'm lucky to be able to do that. I think rowing with the masters guys helped enforce that because reinforce that they would go to their desk jobs after training with me. And we'd email them and talk about how many cups of coffee they had drunk in the day and be like, oh, I just woke up from my two hour nap. Glad you guys are surviving. And I think it really highlighted how lucky I am to be doing what I'm doing. Talking to juniors also highlights that I think. Every time we get to share an experience and help other people, it reinforces that. And I think one of the pieces of advice that I've gotten that is very valuable is don't let the highs get too high, don't let the lows get too low. And it's very easy to be caught up in, like we're talking about outcomes, whether that's a number or whether that's what the bar we set for ourselves. And sometimes you're gonna have good days, and sometimes you're gonna have bad days. And in order to move on to the next day, I need to be able to start at off on somewhere near middle ground. So the ability to control what I can control and learn from the past, but not to get too caught up in whether it's good or bad.

Pete Kadushin  52:52

Yeah, it's the moving through, right. But I guess I don't know if that's that's how you think about it. But this idea that be frustrated if you're frustrated or disappointed and then move through that as opposed to like camping out and like building a lean to and then just having a pity party for a week.

Gevvie Stone  53:09

I mean there's so much to learn from failures, especially. I think there are things to be learned from success as well. You know what you did, But, failures, yeah, I mean, if you don't think that you have room for improvement after a failure, then it's probably time to stop.

Pete Kadushin  53:27

Oh, yeah.

Gevvie Stone  53:29

Because, yeah, it's just there, so there are always so many different ways to approach a situation. And whether it's a technical thing, or a physiologic thing, or a recovery thing, or this or that, I think the failures force us to examine what we were doing and how we can improve. And that's the way we get better.

Pete Kadushin  53:52

I mean, that's sometimes the thing that slingshots you into the next level that you weren't sure you could get to.

Gevvie Stone  53:59

Yeah, I always say the best one of the best results I've ever had was finishing fourth at the World Championships in 2015 because fourth, wasn't, it's not ideal, you're not on the podium. It's not a medal. And I had medaled at the World Cups prior. At the same time, fourth is just within reach. Like, you know, that you are capable of getting onto that podium because you are so close. And so you have the failure to analyze what you can improve, but you have the motivation to know that it's, it's just there.

Pete Kadushin  54:31

When that's the sweet spot, you're talking about goals that are hard, but achievable. And and getting that result gave you a hard achievable goal that you could aim, you know, the next year reality. So cool. I could keep going and going and going. Instead, I will demonstrate restraint. And the last question I have, I love getting to know the beautiful moment and because I've never rode, and I don't know what that's like. And so I'm curious, it could be, like a specific snapshot from a race or a practice, or it could just be sort of like the, the thing about rowing, the beautiful moment about rowing in general. Wherever you want to take this, paint me that picture, I'm gonna close my eyes and let it soak in.

Gevvie Stone  55:21

Yeah, I think there are always beautiful experiences that I can return to. But I think the thing that is most special about rowing is the sensation, not at race pace, which is grueling, and a ton of things are going through your head. But when you're working hard enough for it not to be jogging pace, but easy enough that you can relax, and the feeling on the recovery. So when your blades are out of the water. So in rowing, your muscles are contracting during the drive. So blades go in, you push, blades come out, and the boat moves forward, like if you actually it feels like you're moving forward in the boat. But if you're careful, and you're a physicist, the person stays stationary, on the recovery and the boat moves forward. And then you're at the point where you're ready to push again, and then the boat moves and you stay stationary. And on the recovery, when the boat is moving underneath you and doing all the work for you. You've done what you need to do. I think it comes close to flying. And I think that is a really special thing about rowing.

Pete Kadushin  56:42

I'm gonna try next time I'm on an erg, I'm gonna close my eyes

Gevvie Stone  56:45

It doesn't feel the same on the erg.

Pete Kadushin  56:47

No, because it's not moving.

Gevvie Stone  56:48

It's not moving. You have to use your hamstrings on the air to pull yourself back up to the catch.

Pete Kadushin  56:54

So what you're saying is I need to actually get on the water.

Gevvie Stone  56:57

You need to get on the boat to experience it.

Pete Kadushin  56:58

Yeah. All right, I'm gonna

Gevvie Stone  56:59

It needs to be a flat day. I mean, it's never as easy when it's windy. But on a calm day, when you're working at like a 20 to 24 hard, but not too hard. On that moment, the recovery, taking the time and letting the boat go is really. Yeah, when you get that, you know it.

Pete Kadushin  57:24

So cool. That is so cool. It's a perfect spot for us to end it. Gevvie, thank you so much for the time. I really appreciate you stopping by and sharing your experience and, and the skills that you're using. And I'm certainly going to be watching and cheering for you in a couple of months.

Gevvie Stone  57:40

You're welcome. Thank you. It's fun to talk.

Pete Kadushin  57:44

((Whoa, hold up. So we hit stop. And Gevvie told me that there was one more question that I'd forgotten to ask. So for the first time, and maybe not the last, it's time for the bonus question!!!!))

I lied. This is not the that wasn't the last question. This is the last question. I'm curious when it comes to rowing, how much is physical and how much of it is mental?

Gevvie Stone  58:12

And I told Pete that I got the question in advance and this is dinner table conversation last night. I asked my boyfriend what he thought as a non rower was how much was physical and how much is mental. And he said, I don't know, like 75% physical. And I actually think that it's 75% mental, which he was shocked by because he knows how much I do, and how much time I spend working on the physical. I mean, I spend hours of practice. I spend hours lifting. I spend hours on the stationary bike, stretching, etc. And the physical is obviously necessary to complete the goal. But rowing is a repetitive sport. And little details are important, how you hold your hands, how you engage your core, and the mental fortitude to keep focusing on those things, stroke after stroke after stroke, and on making improvements and changing things in addition to pushing your body and pushing your limits. I think that is why it is almost entirely mental. That repetition and that ness like necessity for persistence and grit. Just repeat the same things in pursuit of speed. Never mind the self talk and everything else we've been talking, everything else this discussion has been about in terms of the motivational side of things. But the focus, the motivation, the self talk, I think, I know plenty of people who should be good rowers based on their physical attributes and aren't because they don't have what it takes mentally.

Pete Kadushin  59:51

Yeah. I mean, as a mental performance coach, this is a satisfying answer. I did not tee you up to say that and I think it's what gets missed in any sort of endurance experience, regardless of how long it lasts. So you can't just start rowing and then shut your brain off, right? You have to be in the seat. You have to be present to the experience and that requires not just energy, but a lot of skill. And it's a, an ongoing challenge for strokes one through 10, and then back down to one.

Gevvie Stone  1:00:24

And then back down. And that's why I mean, Wednesday afternoons, I always joked I had it off, quote, unquote, and it wasn't. It's 60 minutes on the stationary bike. And even though that's physical work, it felt like a recovery session, because on a stationary bike, you do not have to think at all. You can plug in a tv show or movie and just go.

Pete Kadushin  1:00:42

Yeah, you don't have to avoid anybody.

Gevvie Stone  1:00:44

There's no collisions. There's no core stability. There's nothing. You just set the time and you go. And, I think, yeah, I think that it is the mental and the emotional connections that really make a successful rower.

Pete Kadushin  1:01:01

Alright, that's it for today. If you liked this episode, make sure you subscribe to the show. And don't forget to rate and leave a review. If you want to dive deeper into the concepts and concrete practices from today. I'm talking access to show notes and the transcript for the episode and a whole bunch of other mental training goodies, head over to MTL dot Academy. That's MTL dot Academy. Each week, after the episode goes live, I'll also be sharing a worksheet that's going to help you level up your mindset and mental skills. And the only way to get access is through our weekly newsletter. So when you hit the bottom of the web page, don't forget to sign up for that too. Until next time, be well.