Episode 5: Relentless Forward Progress
Jon Kinner on Type 2 Fun, Deploying Your Mantras, and the Paradox of Ultrarunning
About This Episode
Today’s guest is Jon Kinner (@ultrajonk). Jon’s an endurance athlete who followed his dream of nordic skiing to Western Colorado University. Jon grew his passion for exercise and fitness into a career as an elementary PE teacher in Golden, CO, and earned a Master’s in Sport & Exercise Science from the University of Northern Colorado as well.
As you’ll hear in the show, one missed bus ride and Jon accidentally discovered his affinity for long distance running and he quickly progressed to marathon racing, eventually qualifying for and running in the Boston marathon in 2010. That wasn’t enough...
He ran his first 50 miler in the spring of 2011 and since 2014, has successfully finished six 100 mile ultramarathons. In this episode we go deep into the mantras he’s developed over all those miles, his strategies for preparing his mind and body for the worst on race day, and how running provides an incredible mirror into our lives. Jon and I have been meaning to sit down and have this conversation forever, and I’m glad we got to share it with you.
Links and Resources
Obstacle is the Way - Ryan Holiday
Born to Run - Christopher McDougall
The Science of Ultra - Shawn Bearden
Episode Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
mantras, running, suffering, discomfort, ultra, experience, wim hof, breathing
Jon Kinner 00:00
So we're running at the same time as the 100 milers. And so you've seen him and I was like, dude, no freakin way. Like, this is the hardest thing I've ever done. There's no way I'm touching that with 100 foot pole. Like, those guys look like death. And, you know, a few years later it was me too.
Pete Kadushin 00:28
Welcome to the mental training lab. I'm Pete Kadushin, your host, and my job is to have fun conversations that leave you with actionable tools, little experiments that will help you improve your mindset and mental skills so that you can do the things you love at a higher level. Today's guest is Jon Kinner. Jon's an endurance athlete who followed his dream of Nordic skiing to western Colorado University. Jon also grew his passion for exercise and fitness into a career as an elementary PE teacher in Golden Colorado, and earned a master's in Sport and Exercise Science from the University of Northern Colorado as well. As you hear in the show, one missed bus ride and Jon accidentally discovered his affinity for long distance running. And he quickly progressed to marathon racing, eventually qualifying for and running in the Boston Marathon in 2010. But obviously, that wasn't enough. He ran his first 50 miler in the spring of 2011, and since 2014, has successfully finished six 100 mile ultra marathons. In this episode, we go deep into the mantras he's developed over all those miles, his strategies for preparing his mind and body for the worst on race day, and how running provides an incredible mirror directly into our lives. Now, Jon and I have been meaning to sit down and have this conversation for forever. And I'm really glad that we get a chance to share it with you. Now, to the show. Jon, thanks so much for being on the show, man. Really excited to have you in the lab.
Jon Kinner 01:55
Fantastic. I'm so happy to be here Pete.
Pete Kadushin 01:57
Yeah. So, I want to start by maybe covering my ass a little bit. You've, you've run a lot of marathons. You've run a lot of ultra marathons. What's your least favorite question you get when you tell people that you're an ultra marathoner? And I'm just not gonna, then I'm not gonna ask it.
Jon Kinner 02:14
Oh, no, that's like the that's the one that you know, it's like, I don't even like to drive that far, you know, that kind of? I've never ridden, ridden my bike. You know, that's, I mean, I, I don't dislike it, because it means that people are interested, honestly. But like, that's the one that I get the most, what do you eat? You know, how do you stop? Do you take naps? I mean, there's all those questions. And to me, it's just that like, people are interested in what you're doing. Like they they're they can't conceptualize what that is. Even people that run marathons. They're like, I, that's four times as long as I've ever tried to run. So they can't conceptualize it, so they're just trying to figure out for themselves where they is. So for me, it's like, they're putting themselves into that beginner mindset, which is cool.
Pete Kadushin 02:59
So the, the short answer is there isn't a question that drives you banana sandwich. It's
Jon Kinner 03:04
No, not really.
Pete Kadushin 03:05
Yeah, yeah, you let you like the people have follow up questions. They want to dig a little bit deeper,
Jon Kinner 03:10
Right. I mean, it's like maybe it's the educator and me. You know, I want kids to ask questions. I want adults that questions about stuff. So
Pete Kadushin 03:17
Well, the good news is, I'm here to ask questions. So we're, we found each other in the right spot.
Jon Kinner 03:23
Right. I'm going to be taking notes this whole time, too. So
Pete Kadushin 03:26
Perfect. For anybody hearing the scratching in the background. That's just pen on paper, baby.
Jon Kinner 03:30
Right.
Pete Kadushin 03:31
So to kick things off officially, after we've cleared my question, my first question, you know, it was interesting that in conversations leading up to this, this interview, you you talked about ultra running as kind of an allegory for life or a well lived life, I think is how you put it. And I'm really curious to pull on that for a second, and if you'd be willing to expand on how those two mirror each other, that'd be really cool.
Jon Kinner 03:58
To me, it's almost like you make that connection. I think there's some of this in our running in running racing, generally speaking. So when I think about answering that question, it's just that, like, I think you see it and it's a microcosm, and a 5k for example, if you're racing a 5k you start the race and you feel fantastic. And you reach then you reach a point where you know, sometimes halfway through some two miles into a you know, 3.1 mile race and you're I don't know if I can keep doing this and and then you reach the end you're you you come close to the end and now it's now you're at this point where I'm you know, I'm I'm pushing and I see the finish and I get to push and go right? And then you expand that out to 50 miles 100 miles. And, those those periods of time that you have are are just in there not minutes, you know, their hours of time. So for me, it's like it's like those same feelings. You feel fantastic for like a real long time. I mean hours, you feel good. And then you reach a point, you know, and you're 50 miles in, 30 miles, 50 miles into a race 12 hours into a race. And you know that there's 12, 16, 18 more hours, potentially, that you're out there, and, and there's part of your brain that says, I can't go there. And then the other part of your brain that's just whispering, like, you've done it this far, and you can keep going. And so, for me, it's like that, that general idea of just relentless forward progress, you're going to come up on obstacles that you don't know if you can overcome. And if you just keep pushing forward, you're gonna be able to push through it. And I mean, that's, for me, that's like, I've learned a lot about life. Generally, just, I mean, ultras have taught me that lesson.
Pete Kadushin 05:54
And so relentless forward progress, that's the, that's your mantra.
Jon Kinner 05:59
That, one of, you know, you'll, you'll hear, like, in our discussion, like, I have lots of mantras that just kind of come up at different times when I need them. And that one, I just, I use in my life all the time, too. But it's just, you know, why not? Once you, you've got this, this barrier. If I just keep moving forward, 99 times out of 100, that barrier is going to be surpassed, I'm going to pass it. So. And that is the allegory for life, right? Like you just, you know, sometimes you take a break, sometimes you stop and reflect. But if you just keep going at it, you're gonna figure out a way to get past it.
Pete Kadushin 06:38
And so you you have a training ground for the challenges you're gonna face in life. And you're really seeking out the obstacles already, you've you pointed out that whether it's a 5k or 100 mile race, to a certain extent, if you're doing it, right, it's, it's not gonna feel great. And this is actually a really tough thing for some of the athletes I've worked with to wrap their minds around, because they imagine that there's a perfect race out there somewhere where they, they have a PR or break a world record. And they also feel great and look great, they glisten, they're not sweating. And, and the truth is, if you're preparing yourself, well, no matter how well you've prepared, you're going into the pain cave. And you're going to spend, especially you know, 50 or 100 mile race, you're gonna spend a lot of time in the pain cave.
Jon Kinner 07:28
Right.
Pete Kadushin 07:28
And so you're you're deliberately seeking out that experience, and then transitioning some of those lessons back into life.
Jon Kinner 07:37
Right.
Pete Kadushin 07:37
Does, have you ever noticed it work the other way around, where a lesson that you've learned in other life feeds into the running that you do?
Jon Kinner 07:45
No, absolutely. You know, I do a lot of reading about. I can't remember the author, but that the book is the obstacle is the way. And, you know, I think what he has another new book that's out that's
Pete Kadushin 08:00
stillness, stillness.
Jon Kinner 08:02
Yes. And what's the other one? I can't remember the other one. It's brand new. And I just pulled it up on my audible. I can't remember what it is.
Pete Kadushin 08:10
I'm guessing. And so it's all Ryan Holiday stuff. And maybe the daily stoic?
Jon Kinner 08:15
Yeah, I mean, I that's got me into stoicism a lot. So I would say that stoicism I picked up in my life, and I've applied that to the running. Absolutely.
Pete Kadushin 08:25
Awesome. Awesome. And so we're gonna, we're gonna definitely dive deep into mindset and mental skills. But before that, I'm curious about your performance journey. And the reason why I love this question up front is because so much of our mindset, and so much of how we think about and construct meaning around the things we do comes from the experiences we've had in the past. And so if you were going to write your performance journey, now, what would some of those meaningful chapter headings be? Or section headings?
Jon Kinner 08:56
I love this question. Because it's, you know, it's easy to get stuck in this moment and say, you know, I'm here because of what I've done, you know, this month, last month, last month, but like, I'm here because of what I did when I was three years old, you know? So I think back to, you know, I mean, you know, me, I'm a small guy, I'm five-six, 140 pounds soaking wet, right? And I've always been the littlest guy out there. All through school, everything, every sport I ever tried. I was the littlest guy. And my family's the same way. And so like, my first chapter was, is like, I got involved in soccer at a really young age. And, you know, there was a point where I was intimidated by some of the bigger kids and my grandpa told me, you know, Jon, you're tall enough to touch the ground. And that, that sticks with me. And at some point, when I was, you know, around that same age I, I got this reputation of just being you know, like, I would take a hit and just get back up. And, you know, I had a coach that said, you know, you're like, tough as nails. And so again, that's another mantra that just kind of sticks with me. And so that's, that's like the title for my early life, right? Is like just, you're tall enough, you can touch the ground, you know, and you're, you're tough enough, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter how big you are. So then I kind of fast forward to, like, I didn't really get involved in endurance athletics until I was in high school, you know, I ran long, I ran some, the long distance track races. And when we did our field days, and that kind of stuff. I guess I had an affinity for it, because that was something you had to choose to do and I chose to do it. I don't remember how I did in those races, but like, I obviously chose to do it. So I felt competent. But then I found Nordic skiing, you know, so cross country skiing. And that was like the next phase of my endurance sport. And I had some amazing coaches there. At that point, though, running was still my, that was like a means to an end. So it was, I'm gonna run so that I'm gonna run cross country in the fall, so I can be in shape to Nordic ski, and then I'm gonna run track in the spring, and train over the summer. So again, so just this spiraling, like, so I can ski better. But I had a coach in, in high school, who his his mantra to us, and I love him for this was, and I, this one again, just sticks with me to this day is you'll pass out before you die. And he was he was an Olympian. The other thing I keep from him is, I didn't know he was an Olympian until after I graduated high school. He was a two time Olympian. And that was like, he never said anything about that. So I mean, just an amazing person, but that one is like, you know, that sticks to me. I know. So I use that one, like, just keep going and see that in that same vein of just keep going, you're gonna be fine. You know, you're gonna, you're gonna wake back up and just keep going. Right? So, so then it was that was, that's how I found my way down into school and down into college, and I, you know, went to Western, and that's my dream was to ski collegiately and did that for a couple years and didn't really hack it at the height at the collegiate level as far as skiing, but I really found a love for running. You know, I was like, the dryland training was like, Oh, this is great. And everybody else is like, uh, and I'm like, you know, I love this. And I think the big. The big moment for me was we had gone on a team bike ride, and I got somewhere and my sister, I was on the team at the same time. And our bikes had gotten swapped. So I didn't have my bike. And we ended up in two different places. So I didn't have my bike. I tried to ride her bike for like, a mile like, this is not going to go. So I was up in Crested Butte. And I was like, Well, I'm just gonna run to Gunisson. That'll be my workout. And, and I made it like three quarters of the way back to gunnison before the van came by and they're like, Okay, come on in. And so that was my workout for the day. And I, you know, I, that was the longest at that point that I'd ever run. And
Pete Kadushin 13:07
A casual 15 or 18 miles, probably somewhere in there.
Jon Kinner 13:12
Yeah, on the road. And I'm, like, not prepared for that. And like, it was fun, right? Like fun. Different kind of fun. Type two fun.
Pete Kadushin 13:20
Type two fun. Yes.
Jon Kinner 13:21
Ah, but that I mean, it was just shortly after that, that I really got into running and I ran the boulder boulder. And I started to get into marathon running and was able to run the Boston Marathon, and then qualify for that. And then, but it was, I was looking for that next step. And I read Born to Run, you know, like a lot of people did. And I said, You know what, I really want to get into this ultra marathon thing. I want to try this out. So I ran a 50 mile in 2011. And I think my mantra then for that time is easy, light, smooth, fast. Again, that's that's from Mica True, right?
Pete Kadushin 14:01
Easy, light, smooth, fast.
Jon Kinner 14:03
Easy, light, smooth, fast. Yeah. Right. And that one's a mantra. Right. And then I got to run Leadville in 2014. And then I was really hooked.
Pete Kadushin 14:15
So you went from the 50 and 2011 and then was Leadville your first 100
Jon Kinner 14:22
First 100. I ran I ran the 50 and 11,12, I want to say 13 too. I can't remember one of those years I ran a 30. I ran just the 30k at the same time, it was a 50 mile earth sites in big horn so up in the big horns of Northern Wyoming. And just beautiful beautiful they also have 100 there which ended up being my the second 100 that I did outside of Leadville. But, it again, like I said, hooked me.
Pete Kadushin 14:58
Did you have an eye towards the 100 because of having read Born to Run, so all these 50s you're doing, are you thinking in the back of your mind, like, I want that? I think I want that? Or was it something that came to you a little bit further down the road?
Jon Kinner 15:12
That's a good question. I think, probably the 50. The first 50 was just finishing the 50. You know, like, I this is double marathon. I had no idea what I could do. And, and I know I finished well, and then I read the next year and finished even better. And I think it was after the second one that I was kind of like, Hey, you know, this. I can honestly think like the first 50 was, like I said, we were running at the same time as the 100 milers. And so you've seen them and I was like, dude, no freakin way. Like, this is the hardest thing I've ever done. There's no way I'm touching that with 100 foot pole. Like, those guys look like death. And, you know, a few years later, that was me too.
Pete Kadushin 15:55
This. This is an interesting connection back to life, though, right is that there's so many times where we look towards something that struck a chord in us, right? You read the book, and it wasn't like, those people are nuts, right? You went there's something about that, right? Because there's plenty of people who run road marathons and go, that's pretty good. I'm good there. And then to run your 50, run several 50s and look and go those guys, man never. But then little by little start to adopt the well, what if, let me try it on. And we always try this stuff on in our minds first before we really actualize it we turn it into real life. And I love the mantra you create everything twice. Right once in your mind, and then once in reality, and and so it's really interesting to hear the evolution of not just your whole journey, but then this specific piece of it to then finally get to Leadville in 2014 for the first time. Right? Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Jon Kinner 17:02
So yeah, I mean, it is and then it's, yeah, I feel that like, the other thing that that sprung up for me was like, you know, that micro again, another parallel to life is like, so this 50 mile that I run, they have a 50k and a 30k 50k 50 mile 100 mile all run on the same weekend. So and you're in its design, they design it. So the 100 starts the Friday, and then 50 starts early on Saturday. And 50k starts a couple hours later. And that 30k starts a couple hours later. And so you're all the 50 mile is just the second half of the 100. So so you're all on the same course. And if you're doing well enough, you see everyone. You see suffering at all kinds of levels, and enjoyment in all, at every level too. And so you I mean, you get to, you know, you feel that yourself. And it's just like the community is great. Because you see these people that like, Oh, I'm only I only did the 30k. And that's why I made a joke about that. But that's like, that's the most common thing you'd hear if you're running the 50 mile or the or the 100 mile. Oh, no, I'm only doing 30k I'm only doing 50k I'm only out here for 18 miles or 30 miles. Right, you know, right? I'm only, you know, my I always I would always tell people like no, you are doing fantastic. You know, that's you're out here for 18 miles of gorgeousness.
Pete Kadushin 18:28
Yeah, you're out here. And again, another really human behavior to look around and rather than think about what you're doing, you look at what other people are doing and go, Oh, yeah, but they're way up further up the mountain. And, and it's great, particularly in the the ultra community, the folks that I've been able to connect with, that there's really a sense of like, you're out here, man, or you're out here, human, right. We're just happy to have you here and to collectively enjoy the suffering that we're about to or currently engaged in. I'm curious because you mentioned type two fun. Yeah, tell me a little bit more about type two fun from your perspective.
Jon Kinner 19:07
For me, you know, it's like, a lot of what I do is type two fun, like a lot of the training is type two fun, but it's really when you get into those races that it's like that you you get to reflect on that experience and just how fun it was. So, you know, I mean,
Pete Kadushin 19:28
If we're gonna if we're gonna separate out different types of fun what actually is what do you mean by that? Because I use this term a lot too. And I think we're gonna dive here but I'm not sure,
Jon Kinner 19:39
So I think of, you know, type one fun is your, your, you know, the type of fun we're having right now. Like you're you're just talking with someone, you're laughing, you know, you're hanging out with your friends, you're having a beer. Maybe you maybe you are doing an athletic activity and you're enjoying it in that moment. And then type two fun takes it to that next step of the moment is not fun. And in reflection, you can look back and go, man, I learned so much from this experience good or bad. I learned about the people around me. And, and that, you know, helped me persevere and push through the people that were out there supporting me supporting all of us as a community.
Pete Kadushin 20:25
Yeah, this is a really useful and it's way upstream, right? The reframe. It's not in the moment going like no, no, I asked for this, which is really granular. Instead, you've redefined a whole subset of suffering, as, as type two fun. And the way I think about it is that type one, fun is pleasure, right? in all its various forms. So a bag of Sour Patch Kids and some Mountain Dew or hanging out with my friends throwing bags in the backyard. Type two fun is not pleasurable, right, but carries deep meaning. And so there's suffering with purpose, which is what I get a lot of from, from the ultra folks that I know is this idea that there can be joy, even as like, my legs hurt, my heart hurts, my arms hurt, my lungs hurt, my whole body feels like it's about to melt off my bones, but I'm gonna keep going.
Jon Kinner 21:21
Even though I there's, I can say that there's moments within that suffering that you can just, you know, I'm like, I'm alive. And I'm doing this thing, right, I have the ability to do this thing. And I can look around and see this majesty around me. And again, it's people to I mean, sometimes you need to spend a lot of time alone. And that's, you know, kind of a good thing to you know, you. And then a lot of time with other people where you're just hours and hours and hours with the same people. I, there's again, you keep on allegory, right, like, yeah, so much of these things that are that are connected between the two of them. So
Pete Kadushin 22:04
You, you brought me with the you're by yourself, but you're also not alone, and 100 miles is a long time. So there's all sorts of experience that you get in that journey. But you also highlighted, again, in sort of the the pre conversation that we had, that there's a bunch of these paradoxes cooked in to the experience of ultra running. And so a couple that you talked about, right with this idea that you you're building this sense of self reliance, because there's a lot of stretches on a course where you're going to be out there, and you're out there, I mean, you're in the middle of nowhere, and you have to be able to take care of yourself. And so many of the people in the ultra community, almost everybody is got a crew to support them. And many people use pacers. And so there's this paradox of self reliance, but also support and connection and community. And then the other big one you highlighted was like, you know, your training for efficiency. And for ease that easy, smooth, light and fast. And at the same time, you're going to be going long enough and steep enough that you know, there's going to be challenge and just piles of discomfort. And so I'm curious how do those paradoxes and if you have others that you that that resonate for you? How did those influence your training and your performance? What do you you, what do you do with them?
Jon Kinner 23:21
What do you do with them? You know, like, back to the first one, it's just that training, you know, last weekend I ran two 15 mile runs, you know, this coming week, this coming weekend, I'm probably I don't know if you can see what it is snowing like crazy. And I've I've got I've got plans to run a marathon this weekend. You know. And, and there's, I mean, I do play a group runs and you run with people, but so it's planning to know like, I've got to do this myself on I'm doing I'm out there. Right. And, and you know, and then it's actually intentional, right? You are intentional in saying I could find someone to run this with but I kind of need to do this myself right now. But then it's taken that step to go okay, well, my family and friends whatever that that come and pace me once I get there. I I have to rely on them. And I mean, there's plenty of there are plenty of people that do these things without the extra support. But then you're if you're even if you don't have a crew there, you don't have a pacer there, you're relying on every volunteer hundreds of volunteers for every race, that are that are out there just as long as you are, if not longer, sometimes freezing cold. And they're greeting you with a smile and asking you what water you need and what food you need and what this you need and what that you need. If you need a chair and you need a rest and, you know, do you need me to help with a blister? Do you need you know, like, whatever you could possibly imagine. And these people are out there giving up themselves, right so it's by myself and I'm reliant on you. And again, back to the alegory, right, like, you have to rely on ourselves for so much. But you've got to trust the people around you to do to be there. And and when they are there to give that to them and say, I'm gonna let you do you let you do what you can to help me. So there's that. And then it was the sec. This already already now I'm like, No, I'm lost now I'm lost in my thought.
Pete Kadushin 25:30
That's all right. Yeah, we we just before we get there, I've I've done a couple of aid station operations in my in my day and this stuff that people ask for the things that people on these journeys, I've done a couple of the Growler up in, up in Gunny. And so get people will hop off their bikes and be like I need I don't know what I need, I need a quarter can of coke. And I need a half an Oreo, but just half of the frosting on it. I don't know if you can do that for me. And they're like falling off their bike. And then five minutes later, they get a quarter can of coke in them and a couple of Oreos, and then they're like, Alright, I'm ready to go. Let's do this. So you see, you see a lot of humanity, when you're helping and supporting those things. And there's a lot of joy for me in that experience. Before we get to some more of that support, though, the the other tension that we talked about was this idea of ease, and then knowing you're about to collide into this comfort.
Jon Kinner 26:30
Right? Yeah. So it's like, like these 15 mile runs that I ran this last week. And I'm at the point now my training has now progressed in this training block of time that 15 miles back to back was like, is good. Like, it's not hard anymore, right? And then I mean, anybody that's done any kind of endurance race running, you kind of get to that point, you're like, Okay, I'm here. And so it's, this is easy. So now it's time for me to up the game. And so it's for me, it's beyond just the running. So it's like yeah, okay, so now I need to do you know, I'm gonna push that pace up to it, you know, I'm gonna push to 26. And then, you know, backend it with the 13 miles or 10 miles or something, just to see how I do on or maybe I'm gonna spend that time on a mountain. But then it's doing other things intentionally that are uncomfortable. So and it can be in life, like, this is my first podcast, I've never done this, like this is, this is something that's inherently just a little bit like outside my comfort zone. I haven't tried this before. And so that's, you know, again, that's that's the mentality now I get a chance to like, do something that like, Oh, I can do this. And then I think Pete you and I connected over Wim Hof and breathing and cold showers. And I'm interested to hear from you a little bit actually about your suffer clubs. I remember you talking about that. And, but for me, it's like the cold shower and getting in getting in the cold, like intentional, like, this is not comfortable. And it's a short amount of time, but I'm getting in the water, I'm going to gain Clear Creek and golden here and in Denver, and the waters 40 degrees. And ice is floating by and I'm going to, I'm going to just soak in there for three minutes. And it's fantastic when you get out but it is uncomfortable when you're in there. And you know, the cold shower like intentional, it's intentional discomfort leads to that opportunity to like personal growth, emotional growth, physical growth.
Pete Kadushin 28:38
And to pull out a couple of things, right, that this really mirrors your experience going from road marathons to then like, well, I'm just gonna stretch it out a little bit further, and then go on like alright, I've done some 50s I could I could try on this idea of 100. And so it really speaks to the idea that we can be systematic with our growth that it isn't. And I think this is a big challenge for especially young performers these days is that you see everybody's highlights. And so you know, it seems like they were fully formed when they arrived on the scene. And we don't get the whole preamble the whole experience that led up to it where it was just a little bit by a little bit by a little bit and, and pushing those boundaries in a way that wasn't so far outside of the comfort zone, that it was a no go. Right, it was like, just 4% harder than it could be. And that's actually you know, there's some there's a great book called Rise of Superman that looks at endurance and extreme athletes through the lens of flow and getting in the zone and drawing on some of the research that they have in that book, right that 4% is the magic numbers that things don't have to be a lot harder to trigger flow. And but they do have to be a little bit harder than you think you might be able to tackle. And so I love that you're able to mirror not only do In, in running, but also then find ways like cold showers, cold exposure, that allow you to practice that dichotomy, the paradox of ease and discomfort together, which then fuels your ability to run differently. In terms of the suffer club, so I was I was fascinated with this idea of getting better at doing something hard on purpose. And so this is back when I was still teaching, I offered up extra credit. And I said, here's what you're going to do, you're going to find something uncomfortable. And so for me, I hate cold water. Let me let me back it up. Cold water is really uncomfortable to me. And, and so I said, I'm going to volunteer to finish each shower with cold water and one of my students, she raised her hand, she said, Yeah, you owe us the full shower. And I went, ah, all right, okay, fine. I'll do it. So I committed for the whole week. And I said, you can get off of social media for a whole week, you can do cold exposure, you can have a challenging conversation, or introduce yourself to somebody. If you're uncomfortable in social situations, all you have to do is for one week, every day, find something uncomfortable. And then notice what happens. And what happened. So they wrote up a little reflection at the end. And what they noticed every student unprompted was that what was really uncomfortable on day one, was less uncomfortable by the time they got to day four, and then was like, kind of no big deal by the time they got to day seven, right? And this then really speaks to that expanding zone of tolerable discomfort, right? Can I not just expand my comfort zone? But can I expand that zone around it, where I'm like, this isn't type one fun, right? climbing into the creek when it's 40 degrees. That's not type one fun. And it's tolerable. Right. And so that, I think, for me is a huge component of not just becoming a better performer, better athlete, but has a huge component of being able to live a meaningful life, because a lot of the stuff that we engage, that's really meaningful, is also like, kind of terrifying. And so being able to meet that head on being present, being fully connected to whatever's happening, like, that's a superpower.
Jon Kinner 32:23
Oh, yeah, being fully present, right? Like, Oh, my gosh, I just, uh, you might be going here in a second. But I was just like, that's the hook for me for 100 mile races, right? Like, is the fact that I've done six of them, I've had two that I didn't finish because of injury. But I finished six. And I'm hopefully I'm hoping to qualify for one this summer, right. But I've found success. And I'm won well, in every single one of them that I finished. And even the ones I didn't finish, like I ran well until I couldn't go anymore. And but there is that very real, no matter how good a shape I'm in there is that very real possibility of I'm not going to be able to finish this. And you know, every, I still need a lot of things to go right. Outside of me, there's a lot of things and again, allegory to life, I keep going back there, but it's like, I can control everything in this box. And I'm gonna do everything I can to control everything in this box. But the box that I'm in is this big, you know? And so I, you know, I need to count on a lot of things. And, and, and then hopefully, and that's where that like suffering practice goes like, Okay, well now now I just pushed that box out a little bit. So I'm controlling a little bit more. And maybe I don't have control of this other space. But I've kind of gone there. So I understand that space a little bit better.
Pete Kadushin 33:55
There's a certain amount of letting go that every athlete resonates with because you can't push your way into the zone. And you certainly can't force your way through 100 miles, there's a certain amount of allowing the the experience to unfold. And this can be really hard for athletes early on, because there's a certain sense of I'm going to impose my will on this 100 mile course and then you're coming back down hope pass and it's getting dark. And obviously you go Oh, if I'm not friends with the trail, then we're gonna have a really rough 35 miles left
Jon Kinner 34:32
Rough day. Rough day.
Pete Kadushin 34:34
And so it's that balance of controlling what you can and letting go of the things out of your control and then enjoying the rest of the roller coaster ride. And that you we started here with presence, right that but the key to that may be for you is presence and so I'd love to pull out and have the opportunity to dive a little bit deeper into the mental skills and the mindset that you you really rely on as you move through something like a 100 mile race.
Jon Kinner 35:08
And it's like these mantras that I keep mentioning, are are just, you mean, you're not using those early. They might be back here, you know, they're just kind of on the backburner, but they're just just constantly there and like ready to pop forward so that it can quiet that thought of like, oh, man, this sucks. I'm not even halfway through. And, but there's nothing. There's no physical reason. I'm just mentally exhausted right now, emotionally tired, like, I'm not hurt. There's no injury. I just everything hurts. And that's when that like, Ken Kluber comes up in my brain, you know, the founder of the Leadville 100, you're tougher than you think you are. You can do more than you think you can. You know, and then it's okay. One more step. You know, real progress.
Pete Kadushin 36:08
So are the mantras something that are pulled out throughout the course of training? Or are they reserved for the races only?
Jon Kinner 36:17
Oh, definitely training. For me, it's like, another intentional thing that I do is I intentionally do some long runs fasted, most of my long runs, fasted, but I also don't take any fuel. So I'm drinking plenty of water, keeping my electrolytes on tack, but I'm intentionally like, you know, I'm, I'm gonna let myself bonk and push through that, because I'm gonna be okay, my electrolytes are fine, my body will figure out how to burn fat, like, it'll figure it out. And the more I do it, the better it'll get at that. So I'm putting myself into that position. And there's definitely some of those where I'm like, okay, you trained for this. This is like, when I reached that point, it's almost like, I try to treat it as a celebration. It's not always there. Right? The celebration is not always there. There is definitely the pity party inside like, Oh, God, but then then you try to get that mounter that comes back up that says, now this is what you're doing this for this, you're you're doing this, so that you can put yourself into this position and see what happens.
Pete Kadushin 37:26
And and so if you go back to Mac 15 milers, wasn't type two fun enough, right, then to limit yourself in terms of input, right in terms of fuel. And fueling is a huge thing. I remember sitting through the first Leadville crew meeting. And they mentioned something like, this isn't actually a running race. This is this is an eating and drinking race. And if you can't do that, right, you are up the creek. And so you've really found a way to build some flexibility into your physical system. But think more than that, right? It's really flexibility inside your mind that however you're feeling when you get to an aid station, right, you've had that some experience like it that you can draw from in a training run. And so that I think from a preparation standpoint, really trying to prepare as you would have the experience during the race, obviously, you can't know what 100 is gonna feel like, right, but you can experiment and find ways to create some additional challenge on a shorter run so that you're not caught blindsided when you're out there, and you're 40 miles into 100 miles.
Jon Kinner 38:36
Right. Right. Right.
Pete Kadushin 38:38
So the the mantras in the training, that that training with purpose are really big. Are there any other mental skills you feel like you really draw from or that you rely on as you move through those two stages of your training and then the execution?
Jon Kinner 38:59
I mean, I've done a lot of reading and being an educator, you know, we talk a lot about Carol Dweck and growth mindset, just generally speaking, and, you know, that's another one that's kind of carried over from life to, you know, my endurance pursuits is like, you know, just every opportunity is an opportunity for me to learn something new. And, you know, maybe it's about me, maybe it's about this course, maybe it's about, you know, my competitors. Maybe it's about x, you know, we're all we're all an experiment of one right were all and a one. So it's just, I guess, continuing, I guess that's still a mantra. I don't know if that answers the question, but it's still and it's just kind of, like, just in the back of my head is just always that opportunity to learn something. I guess the other one that I guess I hold on to would be there's a another podcast I listen to a lot. The podcast, or podcastee whatever. His name is Dr. Sean Bearden. And it's a science of ultra. And he does some of this, he dives into a little bit of the psychology. He also talks, everything, physiology, nutrition, like all the things.
Pete Kadushin 40:19
It's a good, it's a great show.
Jon Kinner 40:20
Yeah. And one of the things that I have that I've held on to from that is, is just trying to enjoy the experience for the experience. So, and I guess it's some of what I've said, it kind of gets into that. But it's like, my goal in entering 100. And I can't say that this was the case, when I did Leadville the first time or the second time, my goal was like, I just want I want to get a big buckle, I want to get under 25 hours, and I want to make it I was successful, I was successful twice in a row, I also wasn't very lucky with weather and conditions in both of those first two years. And so and now I can look back and say, man, those were just ideal years for doing that. But I learned then, like after I ran Big Horn twice, and Big Horn is a completely different animal. That it is, like there's a lot more suck, and potential anyway. And like there's a lot of single track and we got into both times, like just tons of rain, really bad slick mud. And that saved me the second time I did that race was that mentality of I, you know what I am, I am here to experience everything here. So, and I wanted to quit, um, it was it was cold. And I got to an aid station, and I spent 20 minutes just sitting by a fire. And I had to, you know, out loud, just get up, get up, you know, and there's people sitting there like, no, you're good. You're like, No Get up. And then it was and then that that thought came to my head like you're here to experience this. And so I got up and I started walking and it was night, you know, middle of night and see the sun, you know, see the not the sun, see the stars above and the little bit of light that my headlamp gives and I'm like this is this is I'm by myself, I get away from the campfire, and I'm like, I'm out here alone. And then I find peace. When I go, this is what I'm here for, you know. And it was that point. I'm like, okay, and I was 75 miles in. And I mean, I could have easily stopped, you know, but it kept me going.
Pete Kadushin 42:53
And so to, just to reflect a little that there's, for you the use of mantras, that you're a verbal guy. Would you agree if we had to go from words to images that words tend to carry more power?
Jon Kinner 43:13
Generally, yeah. Yeah.
Pete Kadushin 43:16
And and so the the mantras really connect deep in that there. And you know, you talked earlier about trading one thought for another. But it didn't sound like the kind of the hammer and anvil thought stoppage that gets taught sometimes in sports psychology, but that it was more of a redirecting your your eyes and your mind or the spotlight in your mind towards something else that was equally true. You didn't have to negate some other aspect in order to allow for that to be there. And so that you're really elegant in the use of your mantras and language to direct your attention in a way that's productive. And I think that probably helps you channel and you're getting you'll have to let me off this tracks and helps you channel your energy then. So get up, get up, get up. The words, then shift your attention to not how terrible is this man, I could just I could pack it in right now. This fire is so warm. It's oh, if I do stand up, and then you try that on in your mind first before you try it on in reality. But then it starts to channel that energy in a way that allows you to get up and it's through that keyhole that you climbed that on the other side is this. You I can just think of what the sky might have looked like, right? That blanket of stars and you go I'm out here by myself having this experience. The missing ingredient, the one we at least haven't talked about, beyond sort of mentioning this idea of being present is that you had to be where your feet are to appreciate all of that.
Jon Kinner 44:55
Yeah, in reality, I mean, but I I do I you know because of this practice I've really gotten into because of ultra running, I've gotten into meditation a lot. And I guess coming back to what you had mentioned about the hammer and the anvil, it's like, it's more just that, like suggested thought that's like, you know, I'm laying down and I want to sleep. And that thought comes into my head that, you know, whatever is going on at work tomorrow, or whatever's going on with my kids right now. And whatever is this, whatever is that, and I just want to sleep. And rather than saying, I just want to sleep, I just want to sleep. It's going. Let's put this thought away. You know, it's not, it's not gone. You know, that stress from work is still there. But I'm just quieting it and moving it over here compartmentalizing and saying, okay, now, let me focus back on the sleep.
Pete Kadushin 45:50
There's a, there's a little bit of softness that comes with it. Because I think that anytime I kind of get the image of if it's not hammer and anvil, it's sort of like grabbing into your mind and peeling a thought out and like that you couldn't help but create some trauma and inflammation, if you're in there, pulling thoughts out and putting new thoughts in. And so there's a sense of damaging the vessel, if we're fighting with our own thinking, right? Yeah. And that there's a capacity to not fight with your mind, but still bring your attention to the thing, whether it's sleeping, or it's putting one foot in front of the other, that we can do that without having to engage all of the other thoughts that are in there. And I've found a lot of success. And I've had a lot of clients that have found a ton of success in finding a slightly more gentle way of engaging not just themselves, but their mind in particular.
Jon Kinner 46:46
I think about I mean, at that point in the race like I am, you are, you're at your limit physically, emotionally, cognitively every, like, I can't think straight, you know, and like, so putting yourself like, just meditation practice daily, daily, daily makes that process like a non-thinking process. You know, I've gotten to the point where it's, you know, and, and I don't, you can't wait until that moment. So again, it's like I'm intentionally meditating so I can sleep. But it's also a training device, you know. And so for me, it's like a lot of things that I do about, you know, in life, or I almost always, not always, I guess a lot of times I do put on that lens of like, how can this benefit my training? But then if I peel that lens away, all right, then it's, this is this is a life benefit. Meditation's a life benefit. You know, Wim Hof is a life benefit, like, I am absolutely impact positively impacting my biological and physiological systems because of doing that. And I feel younger, and I feel fit. And I feel like invincible in some ways, you know, like, all of those things that are impacting like my life. And then in this other box, it's like, oh, yeah, this is also really cool for ultra running.
Pete Kadushin 48:09
And I'm gonna come back to Wim Hof in just a second. But I want to point out something that I think is really important is that if you want to be able to perform when the bright lights are on, or the shotgun goes off at four in the morning, and it's time to run 100 miles, that there's a necessity to live a different type of life, that you need to include the things from a mindset and a mental skill standpoint, that allow you to build that into your foundation, because pressure reveals what we've trained most. And so you're going to find out who you are, when it's 75 miles, 80 miles, 85 miles in. And if that hasn't been something that you've relied on, if you picked up meditation a week before, and you started running your 100 it's not going to be there when you need it most. And so it makes a lot of sense to me, that for you to have had the success you've had, you've intuitively found, and maybe explicitly decided to plug these things in in a much more life affirming way. And like you pointed out the benefit then is that they're actually just tools that allow you to live a more present more connected, more fulfilled life anyway. And this is my big secret, which is not a secret, which is like I want people to be happy and healthy. And if it's meaningful to go run 100 miles, I want you to be able to do that too. But at the end of the day, whether you finish the race or not, I want you to have the tools that are going to allow you to be a happy, healthy human.
Jon Kinner 49:40
Yeah, to be able to go out there. That's the connection I make in my personal life to my professional life is like trying to I teach elementary kids right but I want them to I mean, they know they all know I'm a runner they like whenever I talk about running me get the eye rolls and Mr. Kinner is talking about his running again. But I, I want them to see like, there are real things that can happen in your life because of doing these types of things. And, you know, like putting yourself out and it doesn't have to be 100 miles. It's just something uncomfortable. It's like your suffer club, you know, do something. Yeah, or 1% like I was listening to, you know, like, I've listened to the other podcast, and it's, you know, 1% better, just do that one thing that makes you 1% better at this, and then do something else that that makes you 1% better again, and 1% better again, and 1% better again, because then you're you're a 5% better human, you know, if you're gonna quantify that, right?
Pete Kadushin 50:46
Compound interest is a real thing. Right? And so that unfolds in a very different way than just adding 1 to1 to 1 to 1 to 1 right. So as we start to wrap up, I do want to pick on the the Wim Hof. And well maybe that your answers gonna be a little different because Wim Hof is something new for you. Is that correct?
Jon Kinner 51:07
I mean, relatively I it's now like, I've known about Wim Hof for probably four years, I and my sister and a brother in law kind of introduced me they talked to me about like this dude Wim Hof and I googled it and I was like, that's okay, whatever. Kind of interesting dude. Iceman, weird, goes swims in the water, swim in the cold for someone like, like you mentioned not liking cold, like, I grew up Nordic skiing. In, you know, Northern Rockies, like, I cold is not something that it like, has ever been something that was like a big deterrent to me. Hot is. But like, okay, well, you know, and it was like, two years ago, probably that I really dug into, like, what is this practice exactly? And I think I've consistently done the breath work in the in the cold for like, a year and a half now. Yeah. And, you know, it's, it's like, it's intentional, like, I'm gonna shave in the shower, if I do that, and that's gonna be a warm shower, I've tried it cold, and it doesn't work. And man, like it, but then I'm finishing cold or, or I'm just taking a cold shower, you know, and I do that every other day, you know, and it's, you know, it's a great way to wake up. It's my coffee in the morning. And, man, it's just fantastic. You know, but it's not fantastic. The minute that you do like, every time and even after a year and a half of doing it, I would say yeah, like consistently like a year and a half now I've been doing cold showers and yeah, still like, pull on that and just turn it on it just and it takes your breath away for three or four breaths and then your knees. And it is a flow. Like, you feel that and you're like, man, this is great. And then you get out, start your day.
Pete Kadushin 52:55
This is I think, where the magic lies. And I've done I've done a couple of workshops would that combined the breath work with the the cold water exposure immediately afterwards, my imaginary attorney is sitting over my shoulder and is whispering in my ear. Let's real quick say that you should absolutely not do any sort of breath holding around water, in water. Because shallow water blackouts are a real thing. You need to be careful, you should be doing this stuff with a buddy and you should check with your doctor before you go throw yourself in a 40 degree anything.
Jon Kinner 53:29
I'm so glad you that you said that I was thinking about the same thing.
Pete Kadushin 53:31
So now now that we've cleared that hurdle, the idea that you can notice the contraction that and it gets subtler and subtler as you get used to something uncomfortable. That contraction that of your breath being taken away, gets quieter. And there's still that physical response of my body is about to die, right? This is significant threat. Right? And it's the ability to purposely then relax into that discomfort to then regulate your breathing to feel the muscle tension and actually let that go. That enables somebody like Wim Hof or somebody like us to sit in really cold water and not die, right when not physically but like not go bananas and hop out immediately. Right. And so I think this is the the big carryover for me is that your life is gonna be uncomfortable, meaningful things carry a lot of extra discomfort usually, can I relax into that discomfort? Can I notice when I, and can I just breathe with that a little bit more. And I love that you brought it right to that that moment where the the water hits you and you go, this is terrible. And then you work your way through that. So I have one question left. Now that I've pushed you outside of your comfort zone for almost an hour. I love to know about the beautiful moment, I've been asking this question for a very long time. And now that I get to actually do it on record, it makes me even happier. And so you can pick ultra running, if that's the thing that resonates most, but I like to leave it wide open. So for you, in terms of performance, really paint a picture for me of the beautiful moment.
Jon Kinner 55:22
Yeah, it's a it's a long, there's a there's a story that that connects to this. And then I'll circle it back to the beautiful moment. So I think in our initial talking we, I told you, there was an interesting story about something. So this was, this story comes from the second time I ran the Big Horn 100. So at this point, my fourth 100 mile race. And at the pre race briefing, we were all the 100 mile runners are there and some of the crew and we're there, and we're talking about, you know, what's kind of what what we should expect all the, you know, typical things. And then we found out that there was a runner there, or who wasn't there, sorry, who had, I think this was going to be his 10th Big Horn, he had run countless hundreds throughout the American West. And he passed away in like March, I want to say it was March of that year while he was training for his for his Big Horn. And so his wife was there, he's from the Sheraton neighborhood or the Sheriton area. So Sheraton, Wyoming is where the Big Horn is run from very near there. And so is this gentleman's name is Matthew Watts. And her wish was that he would get to finish his 100. So she had his bib with a small amount of his ashes that were that was to be like, carried from the start to the finish. But the idea was that different people would, you know, you would would like change possession and pass through and pass through and pass through, and I got to be the person that started.
Pete Kadushin 57:11
Wow.
Jon Kinner 57:11
And I, the funny thing is that my heart started hammering moments before they said, Jon Kinner, come on up here. Like, I don't, I don't know if, like, there was some premonition, some weird vibration, but I knew that it was gonna be me, that started with this. And the gravity of that was just, I mean, like, I almost couldn't stand up. And meeting his wife was amazing, right. So I've got some of my favorite pictures from that race. I think, in the pictures that I shared with you, Pete, one of those is the finish finishing that race. Actually, both of those pictures are finishing that race. But earlier on, and they had pictures of me with these two bibs on, right. And, and then I met someone who was a friend of his, on the very first climb of the race. And we were chatting, and I had the opportunity then at the next station to to pass it off. And then we heard throughout, you know, kept hearing, you know, you were the guy that carried Matt, and you know, and I knew him this, I knew him here. So we'd hear these little little tidbits of stories, like he was a fantastic climber and, and he's such an amazing person, and, you know, this and that. And so then we're coming back because it's in 50, you know 100 mile, 50, 50 miles off, 50 miles back. And so you're just seeing people. And so then I see this, this the person that's carrying it now and you have a little chat with them, and you get to the finish, and you get to you're hanging around waiting for Matt to cross the finish line too. And, I mean, it's so it's not a moment. It's like, a bunch of little moments that just echo back to our humanity. That I suppose is what I would would be my answer. It's just how we're, we're ultimately alone, but we're not. That we're ultimately suffering., but we can can embrace the suffer, I guess. And you know, I guess the other picture that I shared with you is, the tradition I have is I finish and I draw I kissed the ground, and I did it the first time I didn't think I was gonna do it. I just it just something I did. I dropped to the ground and I'm kissing. You know, the ground is gross, whatever. It's it's like giving thanks to everything the world, Mother Earth. You know, whatever higher power you believe in. Yourself. The volunteers. Your family, for helping you make it to that moment. I suppose, I suppose that's it.
Pete Kadushin 1:00:12
I'm left struck by the fact that running isn't that complicated. And running 100 miles, although it's more complicated, still isn't that complicated. It's just moving your feet until you get one foot in front of the other. And the, for you and for many of the people I know who are in love with the act of running. It is so much more there's so much gratitude and vulnerability and sort of a zest for living that has come out through this conversation. And so, and I think that the the story you told, bundled that up in a really, really good way. And so yeah, this is, I wish I could be more eloquent. But you did it. And you nailed it. And so all I've got left to say is thank you. And I really enjoyed this. We've been we've been talking about how we needed to get in and geek out for a while and so I'm really glad that it finally happened. Oh, absolutely. All right. That's it for today. If you liked this episode, make sure you subscribe to the show. And don't forget to rate and leave a review. If you want to dive deeper into the concepts and concrete practices from today. I'm talking access to show notes and the transcript for the episode and a whole bunch of other mental training goodies, head over to MTL dot Academy. That's MTL dot Academy. Each week, after the episode goes live, I'll also be sharing a worksheet that's going to help you level up your mindset and mental skills. And the only way to get access is through our weekly newsletter. So when you hit the bottom of the webpage, don't forget to sign up for that too. Until next time, be well.
