Episode 11: The New Now

Aimee Kimball on Pragmatic Optimism and Developing High Performing Cultures

About This Episode

Today’s guest is Dr. Aimee Kimball (@AimeeKimball). Aimee has worked in a variety of peak performance settings, starting with the UPMC center for sports medicine, and her own private practice in Pittsburgh. In a decade as the mental training consultant for the Pittsburgh Penguins, she was a part of two Stanley Cup winning teams, and is currently the Director of Player and Team Development for the New Jersey Devils.

Following the hockey theme, Aimee has also been tapped as the mental performance coach for the USA Women’s Hockey team as they prepare for the 2022 Olympics. As if her dance card wasn’t already full enough, she also works in the business world, facilitating an extreme growth mindset and creating a mentality that helps leaders succeed at work and in life.

In this episode we discuss the tools that make Aimee successful in her work with elite performers, we deconstruct high performing cultures, and we look at the one key skill that allows those at their best to continue to grow and excel. There are so many actionable tools tucked in here that you’re going to want to listen and then listen again.

Links and Resources

Why We Sleep - Matthew Walker

Culture Code - Daniel Coyle

KPEX Consulting

@aimeekimball (twitter)

Episode Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

culture, coaches, mental, skills, play, practice, leaders, elite performers,

Aimee Kimball  00:00

Right now is the best opportunity you're going to have to say, what do we want? Like what's going to make us excel? Forget about what we used to do or what we might, like, totally think is the way to do things. Right now what can we accomplish? What do we want it to be? What are our key culture components?

Pete Kadushin  00:27

Welcome to the mental training lab. I am at Pete Kadushin, your host, and my job is to have fun conversations that leave you with actionable tools, little experiments that will help you improve your mindset and mental skills so that you can do the things you love at a higher level. Today's guest is Dr. Aimee Kimball. Aimee has worked in a variety of peak performance settings starting with the UPMC center for sports medicine, and her own private practice in Pittsburgh. In a decade as the mental training consultant for the Pittsburgh Penguins, she was a part of two Stanley Cup winning teams, and is currently the director of player and team development for the New Jersey Devils. Following the hockey team, Aimee has been tapped as the mental performance coach for the USA women's hockey team as they prepare for the 2022 Olympics. And as if her dance card wasn't already full enough, she also works in the business world facilitating an extreme growth mindset and creating a mentality that helps leaders succeed at both work and in life. In this episode, we discuss the tools that make Aimee successful in her work with elite performers, we deconstruct high performing cultures, and we also look at the one key skill that allows those at their best to continue to grow and excel. There are so many actionable tools tucked into this episode that you're going to want to listen and then run it back and listen again. Alright, enough preamble, it's time for the show. Aimee, welcome to the mental training lab. Really excited to have you and appreciate your time.

Aimee Kimball  01:47

I'm glad to join you today.

Pete Kadushin  01:49

Well, and so to kick things off, I'm really curious about excellence, right? People who are so good at what they do that they're better than almost everybody else on the planet. And so to jump right in, I guess, when you're looking at the athletes that you've worked with who are excellent, is there anything that distinguishes them from the athletes that kind of hit their ceiling and just kind of idle out at pretty good.

Aimee Kimball  02:14

I think the ones who are exceptional have an intense desire to always be better. They're never satisfied, and they're super competitive. But it's as much with others as it is with themselves. Like they want to challenge themselves to see what they're made of, to see what else they can do, how they can take it up a notch. So there's never a sense of complacency. Like it's not, it's never good enough. And it's not to say that they're perfectionists in a negative way. But it's just this drive to really see what their maximum potential is, instead of where some people okay, I arrived, I've made it to the NHL, and then they're like, content with that, and just staying in the lineup. The best of the best are driven to see how good they can really be, and I think that's what makes them exceptional.

Pete Kadushin  03:07

And I'm hearing a couple things. The first, it's not a comparison to others so much is it's, am I as good as I think I can be?

Aimee Kimball  03:16

Yeah, and sometimes there is that comparison to others because they are competitive. So they do that can drive them. But I think at the heart of it is always that innate desire to be their best.

Pete Kadushin  03:29

And then I wonder because never being satisfied, never feeling like that was good enough, could also be a recipe for burnout. And so how do you see these athletes balance putting gas back in the gas tank, while always kind of looking and going, wow, I could have been 2,3,4 percent better today.

Aimee Kimball  03:48

I think because they listen to other people and they trust the resources that they have around them. And I think that's something else that makes them good is they're really open and coachable. Like, they want to take in more information. They, they will actively seek out nutritionists, strength coaches that have a different perspective. They'll read about things other than just their sport, but things that will enhance their performance in it. So while they're always driven, they understand that they have to take care of themselves, that recovery is really important. And so that willingness to learn how to be the best, and that it's not just about skills, it's about kind of the whole person, I think is important too.

Pete Kadushin  04:29

Well and that feels like it's something that's changed, even in the you know, decade-ish that I've been in the field. Because if I think back to when I was first getting trained up, there were still really big push to try and get athletes to think about sleep and recovery and sort of non-sport related relaxation. And it seems like particularly at the highest level that has become just a much more up front. Now if you talk to an athlete about sleep, they've either heard of Matthew Walker's book or they I've watched a TED talk about it. And they just have a better sense of the fact that if they're sleeping like garbage, everything else gets worse. And the rest goes for. I guess the same goes for the whole athlete. And so have you seen that in your experience as well?

Aimee Kimball  05:14

Yeah, I think people recognize how important that is and that it's not them being lazy, if they go to bed early, or if they need a rest and recovery day. It's them actually enhancing their performance. So seeing that as a tool that helps it even with the the mental training piece of it, recognizing that this is another tool that can enhance my overall performance. And so it's kind of looking at all the details that go into making somebody exceptional. And they say, okay, I need to do all of these things to the best of my ability. Not just this one thing, but everything that plays into it. So they really take a broad perspective on performance. And I do think, if you look back 20 years, people didn't care as much about sleep,. They didn't care about recovery. They'd go out after every game, and then they'd still perform fine. And it's not about being fine. It's about being great. And some of it goes with the confidence of knowing if I do these things I'm going to perform better. So now it's kind of the more we know, the more we have to do. And so you can either commit to doing everything that it takes, or you just commit to doing enough, and that is a big separator between good and great.

Pete Kadushin  06:25

Well, that that can be a slippery slope, because once you've said I'll do whatever it takes, right now you have to calibrate your sleep. And now you have to work on all of your nutrition. And then you're probably thinking about supplements, and then the mental training, and it can end up being not just a big commitment, but an all-consuming commitment to be the best athlete you can be. And I have to imagine that there are some athletes who struggle with making that and then staying with that commitment, through the course of an 82 game season or for a whole career.

Aimee Kimball  06:55

For sure. I mean, it's an obsession. Like, you have to be obsessed with being at your best, but you also have to be okay with not being 100% all the time. Because if there's travel, if there's back to back games, it's understanding that you might not always get what you feel that you need, but you can still perform without necessarily having it because you've primed yourself, you've kind of created this, like a warehouse of skills or of, you know, you've taken care of yourself so well, that you, you have those reserves there for when you need it. And so I think that's why it's important to make sure you have a little bit of everything. But it's a when you become a professional athlete, and I'm not talking about high school athletes needing to commit 24/7 to their sport, because I actually think it's really unhealthy to do that. But when we're talking professional athletes at the elite level, you have to understand that you've got to be committed to this if you want to be exceptional. And it's okay if you don't want to. But if you want to be great, and you want to make a living of it, then you have to say okay, well, here's some of my priorities, here's what I can give up a little bit. But the best of the best it's greatness is an obsession. You don't necessarily have to do that. And I do think it depends what level that you're at. But if you're a player on the bubble of making it versus not, and you don't do some of those things, that can make the difference between having a 10,15 year career and a one year career and the minor leagues. So there has to be some level of commitment to the sport, like, totally, not just in one area.

Pete Kadushin  08:35

And you pointed to the trade offs, that if you're doing more mental training, there's something else that you don't have time for. If you're sleeping nine to 10 hours a day, right, then there's something that you don't have time for, and that the best of the best are more than willing, most of the time to make those sacrifices and that there are guys who are there are athletes out there who are just maybe not willing to do that. And that's okay, too. But they are leaving some of their potential on the table. At that point.

Aimee Kimball  09:04

Yeah. And it's also not everybody needs the same things too. So it's knowing yourself and being educated. And I think more and more athletes are taking the time to learn what it takes, instead of just blindly trusting all the people around them. So they're being their own advocates. And I think that's important because if you know what you need, and you just make sure that you do that. Not everybody needs 12 hours of sleep every night. You might be somebody that can still excel on six hours, eight hours, whatever your body needs to recover because of some of the other things that you do to help your body rest and recover. But understanding what the minimum is but then understanding what it is that you need. So what I need for my sport might be different than somebody else so and might be different for my body than somebody else's body. So it's really being educated and having that awareness of what it takes for you as an individual to be your best.

Pete Kadushin  10:01

And I think that's one of the hardest parts of our profession is that it's not paint by numbers. And this is I think true for skill coaches and strength coaches as well. But it's so easy to watch LeBron do some breathing on the sideline in a finals game, and then go like, oh, he he likes calm, so I'll just do calm and forget to tailor the experience so that it's what do you need to be ready to perform your best? And it sounds like that's a big part of the work that you have done, or maybe you do in empowering and building awareness in athletes so that they can advocate and then know how to get themselves there?

Aimee Kimball  10:38

Yeah, that's usually one of the first conversations I have with an athlete at any level. It doesn't matter if it's a pro or amateur or a young person. It just really talking about when they perform their best, what goes into that. And then there are there other things they should be doing or could be doing. But I really try to focus on what helps them right now to be great. And then what they might need to add to their regimen, and if they're willing to do that, and just kind of having those conversations with them.

Pete Kadushin  11:07

That's such an important question at the end. Are you willing to do that? Cuz I can roll out the greatest mental training plan with the next couple of months laid out. And if you're not willing to sit down for however much time is scheduled each day to actually work on your mental fitness, the plan doesn't matter. And so getting buy-in on the front end, I think helps everything else go a little bit smoother through the process.

Aimee Kimball  11:32

Yeah, and getting the buy-in because they see it's important. They understand why they need to do it, not just because one of us is telling them to do it. Like they need to see it's important.

Pete Kadushin  11:42

Yes, absolutely. So that autonomy and empowerment piece is big, it has to be their choice, or else it's not going to be something sustainable and long term. Or at least that's what it sounds like.

Aimee Kimball  11:54

Oh, for sure. Like when I if I'm ever meeting with a youth athlete, one of the first questions I asked them, is this something you wanted to do, or is this your mom or dad's crazy idea? And because I think it's important that they recognize I'm here for them whether or not their parent thought it was a good idea. Like, I don't really care what their parent thought, like this is about them, and they're they're wanting to do it. And I have no problems telling the parent, don't waste your money. They're not ready for this yet. Just wait till they see it's important. But a lot of the times when they start talking, they kind of they don't want to admit their parents were right. But they'll they'll admit it might benefit them in some ways,

Pete Kadushin  12:31

Well and handing that power over right up front unlocks the opportunity for them to then open up a little bit later and say, okay, well, mom and dad told me to do this, and I could see some value. And so it's it's elegant in that by handing over control, you're giving them the opportunity to say yes.

Aimee Kimball  12:49

Yeah. And I usually just say if they say, oh, this is my mom's idea, I'll say okay, well, why do you think she thought this was a good idea? And they'll say a couple things. And I just say, well, do you agree with that or not? They sometimes say, well, yeah, sometimes not as much as she thinks it is. So.

Pete Kadushin  13:06

And have the body language down too. The eye rolls and the shoulder shrugs. Yeah. Those are some Jedi mind tricks, being able to project or help somebody project into someone else's mind and go, well, why do you think they might? And are they right? Are they wrong? What about that makes them right? That's good. It's good. Before we go any further though, because I get ahead of myself. And we could just dive all the way down in the rabbit hole too soon. I'd love to rewind and get a sense of sort of your history as a consultant, and then if we go further back as a performer, because I think that there's a lot of interesting experiences that then inform the work that we're currently doing and and so if you had to name a couple of the major chapter headings or titles of your your experience so far, what would those look like?

Aimee Kimball  13:56

I don't know what name them but I'm very fortunate. I figured out what I wanted to do in high school. I was a junior in high school when I found out sports psychology existed as a profession. And I was doing three sports at the time. And I was taking a psychology class and just thought everything about the mind was fascinating. And I was reading an article, it was written by a sports psychologist and I said, wait a second, that's a thing. Like I can actually do that for a living. So I told my parents, they bought me a book. I read it in like a week and for a high school students to finish a book in a week, you know, it was something interesting. And I just, I knew that's what I wanted to do because I loved the idea of combining something I was passionate about, which was sport and something I found really interesting, which was the mind. And so that kind of started my career and my journey. And then everything after that was structured. So the schools I picked, the experiences I had all revolved around, doing what I do now. And then after grad school, I went and there was a Sports Medicine Center in Pittsburgh. And they didn't have anybody that did mental training. So I just kind of sent them a resume and told them they needed me. And somehow I was convincing, and they hired me. And then it was basically starting that from scratch, because there wasn't anybody in Pittsburgh that did it. And so you had to educate the public, you had to get the word out there. So I learned a lot about business development along the way. And then the Sports Medicine Center was actually the medical provider for the Pittsburgh Penguins. And the penguins called and asked if I'd come in and speak to their rookies and their young players, and I did and then it kind of just everything took off from there. So I worked with the penguins for 10 years, and then left the penguins to go work with the New Jersey Devils. And so I think a lot of it was the, the passion and dedication to it, just doing a good job with people, like building up a business via word of mouth, because I didn't have an advertising budget. So it was a lot of trusting people to get the word out there for me, and then just being at the right time, like being in the right place at the right time. And then being prepared for those opportunities when they came. And whenever I work with younger people trying to get into the profession, I just say, whatever you do, do the best job you can and give them more than they asked for. Like just be great at what you do and constantly just be helpful. Find a way to be useful to them. And I think that over the years, that's what I've tried to do is just really evolve my approach with whoever I'm working with.

Pete Kadushin  16:31

It reminds me out when I was in grad school, one of our professors Ed Etzel, whenever you'd ask him a question about building a business, he just look at you and say, do good work. And certainly there's there's way more to it in terms of business development and marketing. And at the heart of it if you're not doing good work and nothing else goes. Now to flip it around, because we talked about elite performers. But in the role that you're in, you're certainly performing as well. And so I'm wondering if you could reflect back on your journey and the growth that you've experienced. What are some of the skills that have allowed you then to make impact and to continue to grow, and to do good work at each of those steps of the journey?

Aimee Kimball  17:14

Well, I think, for me, much like elite performers, I'm extremely competitive. I've got three kids, and it's hard to let them win at anything. But then I always, I always tell people, I'm curious. Like, I always want to learn. I don't, I'm kind of a nerd at heart. And I don't like being bored and doing the same thing over and over. So I'm always seeking opportunities to learn, and to see what else I can do. Like how much better I can be at things. So I just love like having conversations like this and talking to people. I don't really like reading textbook type things. I don't really like reading self help books. I'll take things away from them, but I often find that the textbook isn't reality. It's like the ideal, but it's not the reality. And that's something that I've learned along the way is that there's a lot you learn in school that isn't really applicable to real life. And so I think something that's really helped me as a performer, as you say, along my journey is just that openness and coachability to really learn about other people's experiences. While they might come to me as the expert on the mindset, really, it's about their experience. And so, you know, over time, I think when you're, you're young, and you're just getting into it, it's more about proving yourself and just doing a really good job, but making sure that they know and like they know you're you know what you're talking about. But over time, I realized, like, that's not what's really about. It's just being there for the other people and listening to them. And so I think that's something that as you as you kind of grow up and you learn, you realize, like, other people are the best source of information out there. And so I think that sense of seeing others as a resource and as a way to be coached to be better. That's, that's helped me a lot throughout.

Pete Kadushin  19:01

And so it's the combination of curiosity and competitiveness. Wanting to always get better, wanting to do the best that you can. And then also just being wanting to scratch your own itch, whether it's through conversations with the athletes and coaches that you're working with and digging one layer deeper or having conversations like this.

Aimee Kimball  19:22

Yeah. And I think like, you know, I'm I'm ambitious. There's always something else. I'm a very goal oriented person. So it's like, what next? What haven't I experienced? What else can I learn? So that that constant need to grow and not be stagnant and complacent, like those things for me are what helped drive me overall.

Pete Kadushin  19:42

When it's, it's eerie how our stories line up a little bit. Because it was the same thing for me. I think I was a junior in high school. Might have been a sophomore. I was a headcase of a wrestler, and went out to Barnes and Noble and bought a sports psychology book and went well this has got to be the solution. And looking back on it, that pretty much branded me as a nerd in high school. I was like the nerd jock, I guess. But that really kind of started the dominoes toppling when I realized that that was a thing that you could do, like sit down with somebody and make them better in between their ears.

Aimee Kimball  20:17

Yeah. And that's what I just I really like helping people get the most out of themselves. And it's in sport, but it's also in business. Like, I've really enjoyed working with different businesses and applying the same concepts that we do to building a the culture of a team within a business setting and learning from them too. Because it's, it's the same concepts that might be a different approach. But it's generally the same concepts. And so I think that's also fun as well of just learning through different domains, I guess,

Pete Kadushin  20:50

Well and it fits the the curiosity piece, to be able to say, well, I have these tools that I've seen work or these concepts that apply. Do they track when you get into high level business as well? And then the joy of having to figure out how to shape those to meet a new group of humans.

Aimee Kimball  21:07

Right. Yeah, but the business people like all the sports stories, so it's pretty easy to to get some buy in.

Pete Kadushin  21:14

It helps to have all those ready to go. Someone says, what is that like at the professional hockey level? Like, well, let me tell you. Let me quickly de-identify everything in my mind. And then let me tell you.

Aimee Kimball  21:28

Yeah, that's true and never hurts when you say you worked with the team that won two Stanley Cups. So that's some instant credibility in the business world there too.

Pete Kadushin  21:38

Well and you've held the Stanley Cup then yes?

Aimee Kimball  21:41

Yes, I have drank out of it.

Pete Kadushin  21:44

Wow. See, I've I've been within like a yard. I was at the Hockey Hall of Fame up in Toronto. But I made sure not to get any closer, because I certainly hadn't earned it at that point.

Aimee Kimball  21:55

Yeah, no, I got to lift it. It's heavy, but it's lopsided. So it's really, actually hard to lift.

Pete Kadushin  22:01

Is there like visualization that goes into it, because you don't want to be the person who picks it up, and then has it like tip over the back of your head.

Aimee Kimball  22:07

Well, at the time, my daughter, I, we looked up how much the Stanley Cup weighed, and my daughter weighed about the same amount. So I was practicing lifting her up, which was not hard. But it didn't say like one side of the cup was a lot heavier than the other, so it was a struggle.

Pete Kadushin  22:26

Of course, there was preparation that went into it, you had to make sure that everything was lined up, because

Aimee Kimball  22:30

 I wasn't about to embarrass myself. So yeah.

Pete Kadushin  22:34

That's, it's, you're practicing what you preach, right? Getting ready for your performance. And if the performance is making sure you lift the cup, well, you got to make sure that all right, well, the daughter, let's throw a vest on her to make sure she weighs exactly what

Aimee Kimball  22:48

I didn't go to that extreme.

Pete Kadushin  22:50

And then you got to figure out how to weight her down with ankle weights or something so she's a little more lopsided.

Aimee Kimball  22:55

Yeah, next time. Next time, I'll do that.

Pete Kadushin  22:58

There you go. But you're prepared now. You know what it's like.

Aimee Kimball  23:00

I know what it's like. Probably need to do some more lifting beforehand, these days.

Pete Kadushin  23:07

I was gonna ask, what did you drink out of the cup, and then I realized that some things are better left unshared. And so getting back on the mental mental skills and mindset track, I'm what wondering, because we could either talk about sort of the group aspects of things and the culture that you brought up around both high performing teams and businesses, or we could dive a little bit deeper into the individual skills. And I'm wondering what excites you more these days to talk about.

Aimee Kimball  23:34

I think the group culture, because I think that's something particularly now when you look in the business world and the hybrid working environment, I think building that culture is really hard. And I also think when you have people that, you know, this is their livelihood, this is their living, there's a lot of uncertainty in the world, as a leader trying to build them into a team, and develop that higher sense of purpose. Because when you're working with a sports team, it's easy. Everybody wants to win, you've got the same goals. There is some individuality because you want to sign a contract, you want to get bonuses. So that is a piece of it. But sometimes in the business world, you don't have that. It's more about self promotion, getting to the next level. And you don't, the bigger the corporation, the harder it is to get individual buy in to what that corporation is trying to achieve. And so really that culture that you build and develop matters so much, and I think it is hard for leaders to to do that at times. And the less that people are together, the harder it makes it.

Pete Kadushin  24:40

And so it's gotten more challenging over this last year with everybody being hybrid or digital.

Aimee Kimball  24:46

Oh, for sure. And I've seen companies that the leaders want everybody back in but everybody else wants to do hybrid. If you force everybody back in, then it's as a leader, it's selfish when that's not necessarily the case. But that the perception and then you might lose some good employees who don't want to go back to working nine to five in an office, sitting in traffic, wearing suits. They want to stay at home in shorts and T shirts and just be more relaxed. So I think it's there's going to be a major cultural shift in a lot of organizations. And there's, they're trying to figure out how to manage that. So they can still excel, still be successful, but they need to be adaptable at the same time.

Pete Kadushin  25:29

Yeah, I feels like the challenge there is to not get caught up trying to make things go back to the way they were. Because if you're fighting the change, then you don't have an active hand in how the culture evolves.

Aimee Kimball  25:41

Yeah, yeah, people keep using this phrase, the new normal, and I told them to stop using it. Because like normal is such a subjective thing. And I think people think normal is also comfortable. I try to get people to just say, like, it's the new now. Because every moment it's going to be changing. It's what's happening now that we need to adjust to, to adapt to to recognize and like, incorporate into what we're doing. So it's okay, it doesn't have to be normal or abnormal, just is what it is.

Pete Kadushin  26:13

Well, and it, it really speaks to needing clarity about the current conditions of the business or the team that you're on. And recognizing what do you actively trying to create, and what's the next step? As opposed to being caught up in what was normal, and what we kind of want normal to look like. And so there's just I think unpacking some of the the fairy tales that we have in our head, and then forcing people to be really concrete about well, what does that look like right now? And is that actually what you want to be signing up for as a leader as a, as a group, as someone working for this business?

Aimee Kimball  26:48

Yeah. And I think instead of trying to go backwards and recreate what you had, the right now is the best opportunity, you're gonna have to say, what do we want? Like what's going to make us excel. Forget about what we used to do, or what we might like, totally think is the way to do things. Right now, what can we accomplish? What do we want it to be? What are our key culture components that are going to be important to us? And we want to make sure that it's the same values that every employee has. So if you can just start over and identify that, what are those values? What do we want our culture to be like? And what are some things we can do to create that? And then what are some hiccups and obstacles we might face along the way? And then what do we really want but right now we just can't make happen? So I think there's, there's got to be some reality there. People always say you're either a glass half full, or glass half empty. I'm somebody that just says there's water in the glass. Like, this is the situation, what are we going to do about it? Like how do we refill this glass? How do we empty the glass if you want it emptied, whatever your your goals are. But it's saying here's the situation, how do we make the most of it? And then once we maximize what we have now, what's the next step to getting it better and closer to where we want to be?

Pete Kadushin  28:01

It's an easy point to miss. But it's come up a couple of times this idea that it has to start by being grounded in reality. And so that there's the pragmatic approach of well, this is how much water is in the glass first. And then let's think about how to make the best of it. And I think the disconnect is often wanting to funnel in optimism or positivity too early in the process. And it distorts reality. And then you're going like, well, if this was Fantasyland, this is how everything would be. And then here's how I take the next three steps. And that can be way more detrimental than it can be good. The other thing that I noticed. So there's purpose first, was the thing that came up in terms of culture and getting teams together, whether it's business teams, or otherwise. I heard values and then key components of culture, that actualize and help people work towards that purpose. Are there any other factors that you think play in meaningfully to culture that you tend to focus on pretty consistently?

Aimee Kimball  29:05

Making sure that you bring in people that are aligned with your values. So I look at, I've helped with the NHL draft, I don't know, probably 12, 13 years at this point. And it's always interesting, because a lot of times teams spend energy focused on skill. But at some point skill is like splitting hairs. You're trying to figure out who's 70th on your list versus 71st. And there's not much of a difference between those two. And then you kind of start to bring in okay, what are the mental components? Do they have what it takes? Are they a good human type thing? And I think that we've one of the things that we've done in New Jersey has been really cautious about the type of person we bring in, and that they align with our values. We've passed on people with very high skill and high potential because we didn't think they had the attitude that would fit with the culture we were trying to bring, or that maybe their their attitude wasn't going to get them to where we saw their potential was skill wise. And so I think it's very important that whether it's a sports team, or whether it's a business organization that you recognize, whatever you're bringing in is going to influence your culture, either positively negatively, or just neutral. Like they fit what you have, they're adding value, or they might detract from it, and those detractors can really have a negative impact on it more so than people think. So that's something that I always say is just, you know, they might be high talent. They might have a great resume, but do they align with what you're trying to accomplish? And they don't necessarily have to add value, but they can't take away from what you're trying to build.

Pete Kadushin  30:47

Yeah, yeah. Well and I want you to call bs on this, if you think that it's it's not the case. And I'm wondering if there's the old adage that you need three to five positive comments to balance out a negative comment that the negative is just more salient and potent. And I wonder, too, when we're thinking about individuals coming into a culture, if it, you can spend all this time building a culture and making sure that you have the right pieces in place. And I wonder if the bad apples end up having an outsized impact compared to somebody who's really pulling for the team culture in the other direction. And I wonder if that's the case, in the teams that you've worked with, or if it really just depends on the individual?

Aimee Kimball  31:33

Well, it depends on the overall culture. So culture code is a book that I really like. And if you just read the first chapter, culture code, that's all you need to understand why one positive person can impact the team, but while one negative person can also bring them down. And I think if, overall, let's say your locker room has really strong leaders. They set the tone, they're role models, they do everything they're supposed to do, you can sometimes get away with somebody who maybe innately isn't that hard of a worker, because those leaders will hold them accountable. But if you don't have those leaders, and what I find is younger generations tend to have leaders by example, but they don't, they're afraid to rock the boat, they're afraid to call people out, they don't hold people accountable, then people get away with a lot more. And it's true in business. It's true in sport, that if there's no accountability for behaviors, whatever you're letting happen, people think is okay. And so I think even if you are bringing in people with the wrong attitude, they're not team players, they're really going to detract because even if they're just pessimistic by nature, those constant complaints, once you put something in somebody's head, that's then becomes what they look for. So if you told somebody, oh, I hate how she wears red every day, you're gonna, she might not actually wear red every day. But every day that she wears it, you're going to notice oh there she goes, wearing red again. And so it becomes this negative thing, because you're searching to verify what somebody told you. And that's just human nature. And I think, even if you have great leaders, if you've positive people, if there's some that are on the fence between wanting to work hard wanting to buy in, if they see that they can get away with doing something easier, they might be more drawn to the negativity. And so that will maybe pull people down. And that's where it can be a major disservice to your group.

Pete Kadushin  33:32

Yeah, and we're already evolutionarily hardwired to pay attention to threats and to negatives, and, and the unsafe 's. And so if you have even just one person who's priming some of that pessimism, in the locker room, it can spread pretty quickly. I love the culture code. And, and it starts with safety. And so thinking about, you know, if you have leaders on your team that are really good at creating a space where people are heard and seen and feel like they have the space, but then you have one person who's mucking around over in the corner making things feel unsafe. Finding a way to balance those out or neutralize that person takes way more effort than just having not brought them in in the first place, which goes back to the work that you're doing at the combine. And do you do similar work in the context of business where you're looking at fit and helping people assess whether or not they'd want to bring someone in?

Aimee Kimball  34:30

I haven't done much of that. There's the HR has great programs for that, in most companies, so I let them handle that. We might, we'll have discussions, though, with some of the leaders just about what their team is like and what they might need more of or less of, but I don't, I don't get involved in any of the hiring process at this point.

Pete Kadushin  34:52

And if we go beyond safety and purpose, what else do you think really moves the needle for those group cultures, right?

Aimee Kimball  35:04

I think what helps is people find a sense of value and contribution. I think if you feel like what you're doing matters, and that people listen to you and respect to you, and that you're contributing to something bigger than yourself, you're going to going to get more out of people. So the more leaders just take the time to listen to people's ideas, the more they take the time to just let them know, hey, this is how your contribution paid off. It might have been with a sales team, and somebody just did reached out and cold called, and then they pass that sale on to somebody else. Well, did anybody thank that first person that did the cold calling? Because that's what got it started And I think sometimes that's forgotten a little bit. So I think kind of going to the low person on the totem pole and just saying, hey, this, this mattered, thanks a lot. And even if it's somebody that directly reports to you, something as simple as go get a free lunch here, I brought you a coffee today, instead of you bringing me one today. Like those little things that make people feel valued, because I think anytime you put time and energy into something, even if it's in sport, where you're going to practice every single day, and you might not see a lot of playing time, as long as your coaches and your leaders let you know that what you're doing matters, then that's that goes a long way.

Pete Kadushin  36:28

Yeah, it's it's two things, then it's catching people doing something good. And usually coaches are hardwired and leaders are hardwired to do the opposite, right, because that's probably how they were coached or led. And so breaking people out of the mold and being able to help them see when someone's done something really well, as opposed to going, well, that person who did the cold call, we expect them to do that. Right. And it doesn't have to be big gesture. But then also just the little gestures, like buying a cup of coffee, or pulling somebody aside and appreciating them for something that's maybe not sport or mission related within the context of the business to help create more of that connectivity, and that sense of interdependence it sounds like.

Aimee Kimball  37:10

Yeah, for sure.

Pete Kadushin  37:13

So I want to I want to loop back around. I love that we've, we took a trip into culture and to thinking about teams and groups, and then bringing it back to the individual mental skills and mindset. I'm wondering, and this, I'm gonna have to push you to generalize a little bit because everybody's a little different. But I'm always thinking about how to help the listeners get better, how to get better myself. And so if there was one mental skill that you think would be worth addressing first, or it has the most outsized impact, what would that mental skill be for athletes and performers?

Aimee Kimball  37:51

Um, I think one thing is really teaching yourself how to stay focused on what's actually important. I think a lot of times people's mind wanders to the stressors. And that might be like, within a game, you focus on the refs, you focus on your playing time, you focus on the score, instead of focusing on how can I help us win this game? How can I help us score this point? And so really being able to stay focused on the right things at the right time, and the things that are most important too, because I think sometimes our mind wanders all over the place. And a lot of times that focus ties into people's confidence. Like if you're not confident, you're going to be worried and often you're worried or what you're worried about is the uncontrollable things, or the uncertain things. So I think your ability to focus ties into a lot of different things. But I think that what should be forefront in my mind right now. I think that is a skill that once you can develop that everything else falls into place.

Pete Kadushin  39:00

And there's two stages, right? I have to be able to connect to that thing, and control my attention in the moment. If I get distracted, come back to what I've decided is important. But I think there's a potentially more complicated question, which is what is actually important right now? And I find that pushing athletes to answer that question. They'll be like, the game. Alright, that's not that's not specific enough.

Aimee Kimball  39:27

Well, I think it goes back to how we're developing youth athletes too. One of the hardest things for scouts right now in most sports is finding intelligent athletes. Not like they can do math and science but like, sports specific, like field sense, hockey sense, whatever your sport is, but being able to read plays, adapt, adjust, like react in chaos, because I think a lot of times what is happening in new sport, everything is becoming very robotic. Like here's the play. Run this play, instead of like, just being able to play and have fun because there's you don't have as many pickup games of things. And on the flip side, if everything is always pick up, and there is no structure, when you get to an environment where there is structure, you don't know how to deal with that, because you've never had to run plays before. So I think a lot comes back to how people are coached to making sure they're being coached to think on their own. But also understand that when there's structure, here's why that structures in place. So I think, really taking the time to teach people how to think about their sport becomes important, because the more you know, then it can inform what you focus on in the moment.

Pete Kadushin  40:44

So if we can wave a magic wand and get all of the youth sports on board, right, we would really focus on that education and empowerment piece. And then also the balance of structure and freedom, so that athletes would get better at improvising within the context of a system, as opposed to needing just, what's my line? Alright, I said, my line, what happens next?

Aimee Kimball  41:09

Right, exactly. Because if a play breaks down, okay, well, I ran the play I was supposed to do now, what am I supposed to do? They don't have that thought think, to think about it. So then they go back to uh-oh, I don't know what to do. And they start focusing on not screwing up. Now, what do they start worrying, as opposed to, well, what's important right now in this moment for me to do is go in the ball back, score, like whatever the situation is. And so I think that the ability to read the game, and it's hard. Like, the faster the sport is, the harder it is. You know, golf, you can, you've got plenty of time to think and figure it all out. But other sports, you don't have that basketball, hockey, like these are fast moving sports, where you have to be able to think, react, process, all at the same time and perform with someone shoving you, pushing you, hitting you. So I think it's that ability to put things to the side that aren't important and be able to focus in that moment on what you need to do. And to trust your instincts too. I think, I think what we've gotten away from sometimes is people being able to trust their athletic instincts, which if they've gotten to a certain point, they have them, because they've gotten to that point because they know how to play. They're athletic and a lot of times that comes along with how you think. And but they forget that they need to trust it. So I think that's a big part of being able to focus on the important things in the moment is that sense of trust in yourself.

Pete Kadushin  42:34

Yeah, and I want to dig in here because I see this as a key challenge when an athlete's moving from that pretty good to starting to move into a more excellent or more elite level. Because thinking tends to have helped every step of the way. Right. As you're learning the process and the skills, you you need to think a little bit more about strategy about skill development and the technical stuff. And then all of a sudden, there's this sort of collision between, I've thought enough to now I'm thinking too much. And the more you know, at a certain point, actually, the the harder it is to get out of your head, and then just let your body and your intuitive sense that you've now finely honed over a career just take its place. And so I'm wondering, well, first, do you notice that playing out for the athletes that you work with? And then what could we do to get people back into their body and out of their head and starting to trust that intuitive sense a little more?

Aimee Kimball  43:35

Yeah, I think really understanding how important practice is that it's not just going through the motions. Like I always tell coaches to stop calling practice practice and they start calling it preparation. So that they realize that that hour, two hours in there is preparing them for the next competition. And so the more they see that time is preparation, if they are working on something, maybe they spend the first 20 minutes thinking and then say, okay, I'm just going to do, and I'm just going to let my, the filing cabinet I have of all these details in my mind, come into play. And if I do something wrong, the coach is going to tell me. I don't have to judge it. Let he or she judge it for me. You see, I see it a lot with golfers. They go and take a lesson and they get 30 different tweaks with their swing. And then they're just overthinking everything, and it's horrible. So first focusing on one or two things maximum at a time that you're really trying to focus on. But then also like with golfers I say just set up a camera or have somebody there with you, and try to just hit the shot and try to hit 10 of the shots the way you were just taught to do and then watch the film or have who's ever working with you to say, yes, you did it or no, you didn't do it so that you don't have to judge in between whether or not you're doing it. You can see if your body is on autopilot yet because that's kind of the best way to test that autopilot is just to go and see it and be willing to screw up and that's what that preparation, that practice time is really for is to see if it's a habit and automatic. If it's not automatic, you're going to have to think about it. But if you know that it's automatic, then you can just trust that it will be there.

Pete Kadushin  45:12

Yeah and I think I think we stopped short as athletes, we stopped short and we grew more and more of the thinking and the analyzing, and the editing in the process. And then what are you getting better at? Well you're getting better at thinking while you're doing something, and of course that shows up under pressure. And so what you've pointed to is this idea that if we're going to be deliberate about our preparation, I'd like the switch from practice. So it's not deliberate practice anymore, it's deliberate preparation. That part of that would be aiming some some of that time towards practicing your mindset that you'd want in a game, that trust and that letting go and that being in your body, allowing your intuitive sense to do what it knows how to do. And if you're not doing that, then you're setting yourself up on some level, to go back in your head and to start overthinking, and it usually shows up at the worst possible times.

Aimee Kimball  46:02

Yeah, and it's hard because if you are one of the players that is on the brink of getting playing time or not, you want to be doing all the right things at the right time. And in your mind, you can't screw up in practice, because then you're not going to play in the games. And so it's that hard kind of catch 22 of if I'm more automatic, I'm going to play better. But if I'm, if I see how automatic I am, I might not be that good, and then I'm not gonna play at all. So some of it really goes back to the coaching and making sure that coaches are saying, hey, this is the time where I want you to fail, to screw up, to learn, so that when you get to games, you know how to handle that kind of pressure. But I think that's a big part of the mental training too with the athletes is understanding that even when you're practicing and preparing, that's still mentally, you needing to be tough, you needing to be dialed in on the right things at the right time.

Pete Kadushin  46:59

Yeah, I think being able to get to the coaching staff, because this is an easy question fail here or fail in the game? The coaches and the athletes itself would much rather do that during preparation. And we get caught up in trying to win practice coaches want everybody to look good, because then they're less nervous for the next game. And so it's really being explicit with athletes about what are you trying to accomplish. Because if you're trying to win practice, you're doing neither thing well. And if you can focus on getting better, and then transitioning that into that automatic mindset, then everything is going to look better. And if coach is on board, then it can take away that extra layer of anxiety around, well, if I don't have a great practice, does that mean I'm going from the third line down to the fourth line? Am I not going to get dressed for the game, because I just didn't look great in practice? And squaring that away early, I think really makes a difference.

Aimee Kimball  47:51

Yeah. And I think it starts young. Like I, my daughter, she's 10. And she's playing with a pretty good soccer club. And their coach coaches out of fear. If they make a mistake, oh, you're going to get sent down to the B team. So she's like, mediocre in practices and games, because she's afraid. And she's 10. And so it's hurt her confidence. And I'm using every ounce of everything I've learned to like keep her positive and build her confidence up. But it's it's definitely a hard situation. And it's, it's something that I think is important for her to go through and to learn. Like at 10 go ahead and fail, screw up, get mad at the coach, like, let's learn from it. So she has developed a significant amount of mental skills because I've I've let her struggle. And as a parent, I think it's important. If you can't solve everything for your kids, you have to teach them through their struggles. So I've really like gone out of my way to make sure that she is learning through every single practice about how to deal with these struggles. But it's hard because you can see it in the way, whenever the coach is there, she performs one way, and if it's a different coach, she's totally free and 20 times better of a player because she's playing the way she's capable of and not overthinking things. And it's a shame because if you see that at young ages, and it continues and continues, it can spill over like not every kid has a sports psych person as a mom to to help them through it. So, but I do think it's important for coaches to be aware of for parents to be aware of that, like let your kids struggle young so it's easier when they're older. But you've got to teach them how to deal with this and how to think about it.

Pete Kadushin  49:24

Yeah, it's not just throwing somebody in the deep end, right? It's, it's giving them the tools to manage the deep end so that every time their head goes underwater, they don't think that this is it.

Aimee Kimball  49:34

I threw her in a little bit because I wanted to see how she did but I had to pull her back out.

Pete Kadushin  49:39

Well and again, it speaks to the fact that the skills I think are the same, but they look very different in practice and performance. And if we're not turning our mental skills and shaping our mindset in practice, you're not learning as much, you're not growing as much, and then you're not transitioning that into the pressure packed moments. And so you're leaving a ton on that. able, regardless of the level of the athlete. So I have a couple questions as we start to wrap up. The first is that you have a new gig with USA, women's hockey, the national team. And I'm wondering what has got you excited because we talked earlier about curiosity and growth edge. And so I wonder what's got you excited about the new opportunity?

Aimee Kimball  50:23

I just first working with women. I think a lot of my career has been focused on males in hockey, which I love. But I think that when you look at the women's team, it is the best of the best in the US. Like that, it they are the best players, and they're all driven, and they're all dedicated. And their attention to detail is amazing. And so it's just been fun to learn a different setting. And how you do get these women that come in, and this isn't a lot of them, this isn't their career, because they don't get paid as much. Some of them it is. Some of them are still college athletes. One I think is just in high school. Or just finishing high school. And so they're very, some of them are young, some of them have been veterans and been around. And it's just, it's cool to see how you can build a culture with women that live all over the US and only get together a handful of times, particularly this last year, they haven't competed as a national team for almost two years at this point because everything keeps getting canceled. And so just really helping them to build that culture, build that mindset. It's it's just been awesome to work with them and to see their drive, their dedication, the leadership. It's it's a really great group.

Pete Kadushin  51:41

Amazing, amazing, I'm excited to check back in and, you know, half a year, a year and see how the experiences continue to unfold.

Aimee Kimball  51:49

Yeah, it's you know, and to do something that kind of helps your country in some way to I think it's like, I mean, it's a dream of mine. When I got the phone call that asked me to do this, I was I didn't hesitate. I was all in on it. I was ready to go.

Pete Kadushin  52:04

Amazing. And so my last question, I'm always really curious about what the beautiful moment looks like. And I always purposely leave it very vague, because it can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people and and so this could be related to the the consulting work that you've done, or as an athlete yourself, but what, what would you think of as the beautiful moment as it relates to the the experience that you've had around sport, up until this point, because you've already shared a number of really incredible moments?

Aimee Kimball  52:35

Yeah, I mean, it sounds weird, but my beautiful moments are often vicariously lived through others, because I just enjoy helping people. And so I can, you know, when I look at just the NHL players, when it might be a minor league player that I've known for a couple years, and he's trying to make it and then he finally gets his first call up, and he's playing in his first NHL game. Like to me that's amazing. Just watching him out there skating a lot by himself. And watching him, you know, during the the Star Spangled Banner watching like himself on the jumbotron. Or being there when he scores his first goal. Like helping people reach these milestones that they've dreamed about, since they were kids like, That, to me is very fulfilling. But on the flip side, it's just helping someone that's struggled and getting them back. I remember this one, she was a high school softball player. And she came in my office. And within five minutes of talking, she was just crying because of the stress. And she was an excellent player. But she was just so stressed out about everything. And then I talked to her. I don't even remember what I said, but she had practice that night. And her dad called me and said, I haven't seen her play like that for a year. And she just had like, it was just being able to be there for her and have that conversation and let her get everything out and let her know what she felt was normal. Like she started turning everything around. And just being there to help her and going from like tears to cheers was like a pretty amazing thing for me to be able to help her with that.

Pete Kadushin  54:06

I love it. And at so many different levels, then the beautiful moment shows up. It makes sense then, why you you love what you do, because the opportunities are there.

Aimee Kimball  54:15

Yeah, and watching my kids too like, they're all in sports. I don't know that I gave them much of a choice, but they like making sure that they're having fun. They're enjoying it. They're kind of seeing that growth in themselves, too. Part of my beautiful moment is letting them be my little experiments and helping them like get through things too. So I think that's fun, too. Just watching kids have fun and enjoying sport, and getting passionate about it too. That's what I like.

Pete Kadushin  54:43

Well and having the capacity to help shape that for them. And then let them figure it out once you've you've helped set the conditions up to let them then build the skill and the trust in themselves as well. Amazing. I really appreciate, I mean everything. There's tons of little nuggets of wisdom that you tucked in here, some really actionable stuff, and then some great stories to go along with it. So thank you.

Aimee Kimball  55:08

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Pete Kadushin  55:09

Yeah. Is there anything else you want to share with the folks who will get a chance to listen to this before we wrap up?

Aimee Kimball  55:15

No, I think just to summarize it all is understand that your mind impacts everything that you do from when you wake up to go to sleep, and recognizing that there are no Jedi mind tricks that you do control the way that you think. And so recognizing that there's things that you can approach with the right mindset that it and it's really going to help you and impact you and just continue to have that desire to improve and get better and that'll make you exceptional at whatever you do.

Pete Kadushin  55:45

That is a perfect spot to park it. Aimee, thank you, and I hope you have a great rest your day.

Aimee Kimball  55:50

Thank you.

Pete Kadushin  55:52

 Alright, that's it for today. If you liked this episode, make sure you subscribe to the show and don't forget to rate and leave a review. If you want to dive deeper into the concepts and concrete practices from today. I'm talking access to show notes and the transcript for the episode and a whole bunch of other mental training goodies, head over to MTL dot Academy. That's MTL dot Academy. Each week after the episode goes live, I'll also be sharing a worksheet that's going to help you level up your mindset and mental skills. And the only way to get access is through our weekly newsletter. So when you hit the bottom of the webpage, don't forget to sign up for that too. Until next time, be well.