Episode 2: Leave With A Plan
Ali Levy on the Power of Reflection and Getting 1% Better Every Day
About This Episode
Today in the lab we’ve got Ali Levy. Ali is the Director of Product at O2X (o2x.com) and a Mental Performance Specialist. In her role at O2X, Ali works with leading researchers and educators around the country to create tailored, integrated programs designed to meet the unique demands facing tactical athletes and elite organizations. She also holds an M.Ed. in Counseling and Sport Psychology.
In her first career, Ali skied as a member of the U.S. Freestyle Ski Team where she competed at the World Cup level and was crowned 2 x North American Cup Grand Prix Champion. As if that wasn’t impressive enough, she’s also co-led an 1,100 mile self-supported bike ride from Seattle to San Francisco, and most recently trained for and finished her second 50-mile Ultramarathon.
In this episode we dive into the process of systematic reflection, we break down the momentum you can build from stacking up little wins, and we look at why living in alignment is so dang powerful. Enough from me though, let’s get to the show!
Links and Resources
O2X Human Performance (website)
Episode Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
breathing, reflection, big thinking, skiing, visualization, mental training,
Ali Levy 00:00
Did I feel like I had a sense of purpose today or, or not? And I think that's a powerful question that we don't always ask, ask ourselves, but it's a you know, it's a pretty small. It's a big question, but it's, you know, you can do it on a scale of one to five and it's just, you know, every day, adding those little things that you do up to say, hey, did I did I hit that target or, or how far off was I?
Pete Kadushin 00:35
Welcome to the mental training lab. I am at Pete Kadushin, your host. And my job is to have fun conversations that leave you with actionable tools, little experiments that will help you improve your mindset and mental skills so that you can do the things you love at a higher level. Today in the lab, we've got Ali levy. Ali is the director of product at O2X and a mental performance specialist. In her role at O2X Alli works with leading researchers and educators around the country to create tailored, integrated programming designed to meet the unique demands facing tactical athletes and elite organizations. She also holds an M ed in counseling and sports psychology from Boston University. In her first career, Allie skied as a member of the US freestyle ski team, where she competed at the World Cup level, and was crowned a two time North American cup Grand Prix champion. As if that wasn't impressive enough. She's also co lead a 1100 mile self supported by grad from Seattle to San Francisco, and most recently trained for and finished her second 50 mile ultra marathon. In this episode, we dive into the process of systematic reflection, we break down the momentum that you can build from stacking up little wins. And we look at why living in alignment is just so dang powerful. But you know what, enough for me, let's get to the show. Allie, thanks so much for being on the show. Really excited to have you here at the mental training lab.
Ali Levy 01:52
It's great to be here. I'm super excited. So it's always fun to talk shop.
Pete Kadushin 01:57
Oh, we are going to talk shop, we're gonna have what I hope is a really fun geeky conversation. And and so I'd love to just dive right in. And let's start with thinking about mental skills training. And I'm really curious, because we we've had this conversation several times around how to measure and understand what success looks like, from a mental training or a mental skills training standpoint. And so I'm wondering you with the work that you've done around tactical athletes, what do folks generally miss when they think about mental skills training? What are they paying attention to? And if you could shift that, what would you want them to be keeping score around?
Ali Levy 02:38
Yeah, that's a great question. I was actually thinking about that this morning, during a workout, it's like a bit, I've been doing one type of workout for so long and tried a different type of workout. And then my performance stayed the same. And I was like, Oh, this is working. Whatever I've been doing is working. And, and I think sometimes with mental skills, we overcomplicate kind of measuring success, and we're looking for some kind of grand impact or grand number or, you know, wake up and just be like fully conscious of everything around us and feel totally present after we've been practicing, you know, mindfulness of breathing for some number of times. And I think, you know, a lot of a lot of what we do, and working with tactical athletes is figuring out kind of the everyday successes. And you know, what is it that maybe it was a conversation or a stressful situation, you've been in 100 times, that, for whatever reason, today felt a little calmer, or you handled, you were able to take more of a pause before responding to something that normally would cause a lot of stress. So I think it's it's finding those little everyday moments that gradually over time get easier and easier. And, you know, to be honest, I don't know that there's like a great measurement out there. So I'd be curious, your thoughts on that kind of finding. It's that's hard to conceptualize for someone who's new to mental performance, they go, yeah, your conversations are just going to get easier, or you're going to handle a stress a little bit better. But the kind of your thoughts on like, how to how to help people see that, without tracking it in a journal or, or anything daily.
Pete Kadushin 04:09
I think that one of the, the early habits I try and instill in the clients that I work with is some form of reflection, systematic reflection around this exact thing. So designing your own scorecard and then actually keeping score at the end of every day, but being really purposeful about what you put on there. Yeah, I think that your point, though, is we often are looking for the big win. And don't notice that the little wins are actually stacking up into the big wins. And we also generally are looking in a very concrete way we're saying okay, well, if I'm breathing different, this should change. And so it might be perceived exertion in the middle of a PT test or something of that nature. And the truth is, and what you just highlighted, is that the the benefits show up in really interesting ways. So I practice mindfulness. And it might not be sitting on a cushion on the top of a mountain with swirling wind and like the whole thing, right? It might just be paying attention while you're doing the dishes, to doing the dishes. And the purpose is not to get better at doing the dishes, right? You don't need to optimize your performance there. Right. But like you said, the conversation that you have with a significant other or a colleague, where you have that shining moment where you're suddenly present. And it seems like it happened out of nowhere, but it didn't, it didn't happen by accident, right? You trained that to happen. And now that conversation takes a subtle or maybe a profound shift. And I think we miss that.
Ali Levy 05:42
Yeah, I think I think the other thing that's interesting too, is, is even if you have someone who's been practicing, whether it's breathing or or some type of mindfulness or any mental performance skill for a long time, helping them switch skills, because I think sometimes you hit a plateau just like, just like physical training, you know, if you're doing the same lifts the same distance of running every time, you might be performing pretty well, but helping helping people kind of transition into new skills, I was just having a conversation with a, with a hockey athlete who, you know, has been using the same style of breathing for a long time, and all of a sudden, kind of talking through some different different things that one of our events, and like, oh, we'll try, you know, try low and slow breathing or try a different form of breathing and see what that does. And then all of a sudden, you know, the next day, you see a major impact. And then over time, you kind of that that, like, lightbulb moment fades away a little bit, and it's okay, how do you? How do you like re reignite that and helping people realize that just because you're doing one mental performance skill doesn't mean, you never have to use another one or learn another one or practice another one. There's always ways to kind of continue to make that transition from a plateau moment to build it up, but you never hit, you know, hit the top, there's always something to continue to do and get better at.
Pete Kadushin 07:00
I love the the tie in here to physical training. Because I often think that we miss an opportunity, a lot of people are familiar with what it's like to train physically, whether it's endurance or strength or performance specific training. And a lot of the principles that govern physical training, and muscles absolutely govern the muscles in between your ears. And so that idea of finding a way to continually challenge the system. So if we're thinking about your attention control, right to find ways to vary the environment, once you feel comfortable controlling your attention in a certain environment to put proverbial weight on the bar, so that you're always pushing that muscle a little bit further. And the other point that you brought up that I think is really useful is that it can be really easy to get prescriptive. And it's the same thing with physical training, right? I saw a celebrity on Instagram, do this workout. So I'm doing that workout, and it's the only workout I'm gonna do. And realizing that instead of approaching it that way, it's really about building the intelligence, that physical intelligence through training. And then obviously, if we're thinking about the mental skills, it's building the intelligence, and then the fitness to deploy a skill in complicated, uncertain environments. And so rather than saying, the only way to breathe is four seconds in and six seconds out, to really empower people to think, Well, let me try four and six. And let me try through the nose and then out the nose. And let me try through the nose and then out the mouth. And if I can explore all these different areas and places, then I've built a skill that's robust. And it's it's resilient, as opposed to one technique and one trick, and it only works in this very specific instance. And so you're helping that hockey athlete shift out of a more rigid approach to training, I think pays tons and tons of benefits down the road.
Ali Levy 08:57
Yeah, I totally agree. And I think right now we live in a world that's like, wants quick fixes. And so getting people to try all those different things is a challenge. I think that's whether you're talking strength and conditioning, or they want a meal plan for nutrition, or they people just want to know, like, tell me what to do, and, and how to breathe, and I'll do it. And, and they want that kind of quick fix. And I think with mental performance in particular, I think everything's the same in that way that there's no real, you have to figure it out for yourself, and everyone's going to operate a little differently. And that's, to your point about the Instagram influencers. That's a hard it's a hard thing for people to grasp because everyone's just looking for Well, alright, who's the top who's the person that I look up to the most in their performance? What do they do? I'm gonna do that without kind of personalizing it and saying, well, maybe maybe that doesn't work for me. But, you know, this, this does and trying to get people out of their comfort zone to try different things is that we live in a challenging time for that.
Pete Kadushin 09:56
Nobody wants to hear that it's one size fits one. Exactly. But to play the play, the other end of this quick wins are important. Right? Especially quick big wins, because that might be the thing that hooks that individual into the idea that breathing different paying attention different. You're looking at the the words that you're saying to yourself in your mind and controlling those in some way or shaping those in some way could be meaningful. And, and so what have you seen as the big wins or the quick wins? With the populations that you work with? Right first responders across the board, those tactical athletes?
Ali Levy 10:36
Yeah, I think I think number one, first and foremost, is is always breathing. That's the one that I see tactical athletes kind of grab on to the most and, and usually, in my experience, and in what I've heard, the success comes from when they're trying to go to bed. So you'll teach them a breathing skill. And then they'll come back into a workshop the next day and say, Whoa, like I tried low and slow breathing right before I went to bed, and I was out cold for the first time, I slept well, for the first time in, you know, however many months and I think nature, the population we work with as as first responders, a lot of them are on shift work or not getting great sleep for a variety of different reasons. And so that's a really big win to be able to show them one very, very small skill. And I think that's the other key is that it has to be a big win. But it has to be a little change. And I think that's, you know, what we talked a lot about, and you know, this as well as, like 1% changes is what, what's like the smallest incremental change you can make, that's going to have the biggest return. And so breathing, I think it's just, it's one, something we all have to do every day all the time. So it's not teaching them something brand new, it's something that obviously you have to do to live. And so that's a really easy win to say, just do something you're already doing in a slightly different way. And that that tends to really resonate with people. And I think because it has such a big impact on energy and on sleep. That's sort of a lightbulb moment for most tactical athletes I've seen. And also kind of the stress situations that they're going into it's there's always room to take a deep breath. And there's always there's always ways to get that involved in their daily life. Whereas teaching something like visualization or something like thought stopping or something a little bit more of like a brand new skill is going to take more time for them to figure out different ways to put it into their lives and different ways to really see the impact of it.
Pete Kadushin 12:35
There's so much juicy stuff packed in that response. Well, first, I love that you're on brand. Right? The very first question I asked you, we're already on the 1% better by saying here's the little ways that you're getting better each day and drawing my attention to it, the listeners attention to it. And it's something that we usually overlook. And I think a lot of the the power of the programming that you put together and share with with folks who go through these workshops is is around shifting perspective towards if I get 1% better today. And I do that every day. That's a meaningful change, right? That's not throw away difference. I also love the idea that you sleep I mean, I think sleep is king or queen or whatever is higher than that. And if you don't sleep, well, everything else is worse. If you sleep well, everything else is better. And so finding a way to go right at the heart of that, and and share a skill that we all do. Right? Everybody's breathing. If you're not see your doctor had a problem. That's right. Everybody's doing it. But most of us are not doing it on purpose, for a purpose. And so just putting people's hands on the steering wheel for that first time and saying like, Oh, you can actually drive your nervous system. Right, you have choice. That's like mind blowing for folks. And it's funny, because breathing isn't particularly sexy, but getting better sleep. That is, at least in my world.
Ali Levy 14:03
I think Well, I think you hit on something there too, with like talking through breathing. And something that we see works really well with people I think, sort of missing link, even to the measuring success. Question two is, is really tying the skills into how it physiologically impacts you. I think you hit on that with the nervous system, like knowing that breathing is the only pretty much the only autonomic thing that you can actually take control of and directly impact your response to stress i think is for me, that's amazingly mind blowing and very cool. And I think that's also why it resonates really well with the groups we work with. Because it's there's science behind it. It's not you know, it's not coming out of left field. It's not something totally they've never heard of. It's it's driven by science. I think that's that's why it probably resonates really well with who we work with you.
Pete Kadushin 14:54
And I've found in working with those populations but across the board that Being able to point to the very concrete connection between what happens in between your ears not on the brain level, but in the mind. And then what's happening in your body. Suddenly, it goes from like, oh, we're just thinking about feelings, we're just talking about stuff to this is going to have a demonstrated effect on me and my body, my heart rate, my muscle tension, all of that, like now that it's concrete, I think I'm a little bit more invested. Yeah. And so that's been a really important entry point. For me, as I've evolved, because early on, when you're like, well, how does that make you feel? People like, Man, I'm not here for therapy. I just want to be able to dunk a basketball better?
Ali Levy 15:40
Yeah. So do you give people like a baseline, a baseline kind of test of any kind?
Pete Kadushin 15:49
not usually, although it depends on the client and what their goals are. If I had a magic wand, I mean, everyone would have an opportunity to go through some HRV, baseline and upfront heart rate variability so that we could get a sense of the health and flexibility of your autonomic nervous system. And then we could really get a sense of how as you're building those foundational skills, around breathing around paying attention on purpose, shifting the relationship to the words and the images that you have in between your ears. How is that actually impacting your nervous system? And so we could do a pre and post and and look at that as we go through this skills? Yeah, unfortunately, I don't have a magic wand. And so I'm not quite there yet. But I think that this goes back to the original question, which is really how do we measure success. And for me, that would be one of the ways I would want to on a more regular basis. And it's only going to get easier and easier. You know, everybody's got it. Most people have heart rate measuring devices on the wrists now, or at least have access to a heart rate strap. And so we're getting that we're getting closer.
Ali Levy 16:58
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
Pete Kadushin 17:01
Now, I'm going to come back to mental skills. And we're going to dig a little bit deeper, because that's the heart of this show anyway, but I do want to rewind for a bit and get a sense of a little bit of your career arc, because you didn't just suddenly show up on this earth as the Director of Education for Oh, 2x, you've had a really rich experience as a performer and certainly as a human being. And so to get a little bit access to that, I'm curious if we were writing your performance story. And we were going to title some of the key chapters or the key sections? What would those look like?
Ali Levy 17:40
That's, that's a tough, it's a tough, a tough one. It's a big, big question. I think it's it, it's ever evolving. Honestly, I think it's pretty interesting. And when I go back and look kind of growing up, growing up as as kind of a weekend warrior skier, just an athlete, always an athlete, and always trying to kind of get in, get an edge not out of competition, really. But out of sort of always wanting to better myself. I think it's learning I think learning is like chapter one, and and kind of figuring out who my mentors were, and really learning from other people and observing other people was a huge, huge part. And so, really, from probably the age of like, five through, you know, continuously but but through, like 12, or 15 was just like taking on as much as I could from all the people in skiing, who I looked up to and watching their pre race routines and watching how they did visualization and how they broke down film and how they broke down all this different all these different parts of their performance and internalizing that. So I think Part two is like internalizing so as learning, internalizing it, and then kind of using using them all through my own ski career. So internalizing and figuring out exactly the same way we're trying to get people to try new things. It's like, I had pre race routines that varied, you know, every week, until I found the one that either I got lucky at a race and I was like, This is my routine, and this is what I'm sticking with, and I feel good about it or, you know, for whatever reason, I felt like I was finally in that zone of performance. I was like, Alright, whatever I did there, and write it down and and stick with it. And then I think there's like the post ski career. So retired, I retired from from competitive skiing when I was about 20, 20 years old. So after, you know, a 12, a 12 year career, when you retire at 20, you really try to figure out what you're going to do with your life.
Pete Kadushin 19:47
Wow, yeah.
Ali Levy 19:50
And that's where I was like, Okay, now that I have all these skills, what what do I do with them? And so, I think from here on out, it's translation. So learning, internalized And translating them. And I realized that I had all these routines and all these different practices, and nowhere to really implement them in a performance space, but now I'm like, Okay, if I knew that when I walked out my door, and I wanted to have all my ski equipment, I had a routine of something that I ran through my head, I should probably have the same thing when I walk out my door, so I don't leave my keys at home, so that I can focus on my work. And so it's really been interesting to, to be able to translate all those skills into just really ever like everyday life and, and then hopefully pass them on to other people. I think that's always the goal is I was fortunate enough to learn all these skills. And it to me, it was all through other people teaching them to me. So I find, and I'm really passionate about sharing them with other people. And you know, whether they're a youth athlete or someone who's coming up on retirement in their 60s, from being in the fire service for 30 years, like there's, there's always a time to learn these skills so that you can better yourself.
Pete Kadushin 21:03
I just, you know, it's full stop here, because you just took that. And instead of getting into sort of the granular, we're talking the narrative, and here's the sport I was doing, and then here's the next sport I was doing. You went for the big meta thing, right? So the learning, the internalizing the translating, then the sharing, and how that I'm sure has as covered the big arc, but then certainly is in those little micro cycles, as well as you pick up a new skill or translate an old well learned skill into a new environment, and then continue to pass that on. So it's just the type of geeky thinking that I'm here for.
Ali Levy 21:41
No, that's perfect. That's, I think, I think it's hard to get granular about it, honestly, because I think what worked, you as a ski athlete, there was a ton of visualization, like down to, you know, I spent a year and a half trying to try to move my right arm, like an inch. And so so you can get super granular about it. But when I think of how that shapes what I do now, it's not necessarily this the exact same skill, but it's it's that application side. So being able to focus on those really minute changes, or it's just translated in such a different way. And so I think that's why I tend to go tend to go big pretty fast. And in my thinking of it, because I think there's so many different applications for these like tiny, tiny skills.
Pete Kadushin 22:28
I need to walk this back for a second, though. So you spent a you said a year, a year and a half working on moving your right hand just an inch. Is there context to that?
Ali Levy 22:38
Sure. Yeah. So well, so the sport was freestyle ski. So for anyone who doesn't know exactly what that is, it's moguls and aerials. So you're part judge sports. So it's like part figure skating, so you're judged on your form, and you're kind of grace going down the hill, more or less. And then and then the degree of difficulty of the tricks that you're able to do. And then part speed, so part downhill racing. With that, because it's so subjective, everyone kind of has a personal style. And, you know, and you're, and you're judged on, you know, if your knees are coming apart at all, during the run, or if you're, you know, you got, you've got a right arm, that's that every time you make a poll plan is flying behind you, you get docked on points, because it's not the most graceful looking. And so a lot of you know, as after you learn the fundamentals, a lot of what you're doing is really just fine tuning these tiny, tiny things that only judges are picking up on. So if anyone were to watch a watch or race and they'd see 50, people go down the hill, relatively in the same manner. And a little different than any speed sport, where it's, it's truly just, you know, it's just your time that matters, you're really you're catering to someone else's judgment of how you're doing, which is a whole nother mental performance component in and of itself of just, there's a lot out of your control. And so when you have such a small thing that you're trying to fix, that's what's in your control, like, the judges Like it or not, I can't say but I know, I think it looks better when my hands are in this position. And so as is what I'm going to do. And this is hopefully rewarded by by someone else who's judging it externally.
Pete Kadushin 24:23
That's a whole other long conversation. I worked with gymnast's right. When I was I was just getting started. And you just always hope that the judges have good taste. Right, and it's certainly out of your control. And so the ability then to use something like imagery and visualization to focus on the aesthetic or the stylistic side of things, in addition to getting down the hill the fastest is a really interesting application, I think a really valuable one as well. I did I watched a couple of clips of freestyle skiing to get warmed up for this conversation. And my knees ache just watching moguls. And then my stomach turn just a little bit as you watch him go flipping through the air. It's a it's an incredible sport.
Ali Levy 25:12
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. And I think that's part of it's just learning it so young that you conditioned yourself to not be quite as afraid of what you're doing or not know any better, I guess,
Pete Kadushin 25:24
Mmmhmm Yeah. It doesn't feel quite as intense because you have the skill to meet the challenge.
Ali Levy 25:30
Exactly.
Pete Kadushin 25:31
You don't just go send a professional run the very first time you did it when you were eight. That's not how that worked?
Ali Levy 25:37
No, it's probably what I thought it was. But it would definitely wasn't.
Pete Kadushin 25:42
Oh, my goodness. And so visualization was a big piece of the puzzle early.
Ali Levy 25:48
Very early. Yeah.
Pete Kadushin 25:50
Do you still use visualization a lot?
Ali Levy 25:55
I do. And it's, it's in similar applications. It's really performance based for me. So if, if, if I'm about to give a presentation, or you know, even, you know, even small things, like conversations like this, I think it's it's really like, you know, the science side is like building those neural pathways of like, Alright, if this happens, I'm How am I going to react to? You know, so if it's a difficult conversation, or which this is not obviously,
Pete Kadushin 26:24
Well.. not yet!
Ali Levy 26:26
we haven't gotten there yet. But if you know, anything, where I'm presenting, or I think of it as, like, performance, or anything like that, you know, I think it's, it never hurts to visualize yourself doing something, as well as you want to do it. And I think that's, and then working through those contingencies. And that's what we teach a lot with the tactical athletes side, too, is just not everything is going to be perfect. Even if you visualize it that way. You always have to be prepared and know if this happens, what how am I going to work through it not just full stop. Something bad could happen. But how? How do you? How are you gonna prepare yourself to get through that? And what what does that look like on the other side, so I still use it probably every day, I would say I visualized something, whether it's small or big, but
Pete Kadushin 27:13
I remember reading, Thinking Fast and Slow. And realizing how much of preparation and that style of imagery, really play into the ability to think slow in preparation, so that you can think fast and effective, when it's time to actually have the shit hit the fan. And so that you have those contingencies outlined, you know, how you want to react to the likely or maybe unlikely possibilities, so that you're not caught unawares? Yep. And being able to do that on a regular basis creates those neural pathways so that there isn't that little microsecond hitch between the stimulus and now Oh, what do I do? And then response? When we think about the evolution of your experience, and you just talked about how visualization has evolved, what what else do you see in terms of mental skills that you maybe weren't using, in your first performance career that have now grown in importance? Or maybe you've just doubled down on your strengths and really zoomed in on those? I'm not sure. But I'm curious to see how you've evolved?
Ali Levy 28:25
Oh, that's a good question. I think something that I've had to really learn post ski careers is exactly actually how you open this is like measuring success. And I think the, the performance side of that, and kind of, you know, the, I think routines are vastly important for me still, and having a pre race routine and a pre performance routine to get yourself into the right kind of zone of performance was critical. And I think that's something I still very much used, but but on the back end, like measuring success has really been something I've had to work on. And as an athlete, in terms of, you know, coming like mistake management was was always really big in scheme because, like, you know, it's judged sport. So if you bottle or, or make us a tiny, tiny mistake, you really have to get yourself over that pretty quickly. Because there's just, you're doing too many runs too fast. You have to really like per separate on it and dwell on that. But I think now post ski career really figuring out like, Okay, if, if I'm not going up to do 10 training runs, and that was my successful day on a ski hill was did I do that trick? 10 times or not? It's really been kind of deep diving of like, what does success look like? And how do I measure these skills that I'm that I'm using? And how do I make sure that I'm learning a new skill all the time and and i think that's motivation, I guess is what like it really comes down to is like, the, the idea of how do you motivate yourself when you're what what used to be your top motivation is it is no longer there. So that's that's kind of a roundabout, roundabout answer for you.
Pete Kadushin 30:06
I'll take straight on roundabout answers, walkabouts, I'm here for all of it.
Ali Levy 30:12
Perfect.
Pete Kadushin 30:14
My follow up question is, how do you define success now?
Ali Levy 30:22
You know, I think for me, it's, it's, it's really like on brand again, it's like, what did I do 1% better today. And I think it really, you have to look at your days like that. And you have to say, you know, because not not everything's gonna be, you're not always going to have a great day. But if you come out at the end of the day and say, Hey, I might not have had the best workout today. But I really like nailed this presentation at work, or I really had a great phone call with an old friend that that was my 1%. Today, it was just getting in touch with someone, I think kind of finding those like small, small victories and those things that sort of build you up every day is a measurement. I think it's it's the other the other big thing is is perspective. So did I did I have something today that either I changed my perspective on or I was open to a new experience? I think that's a huge part of daily success for me. And two would be did I help someone else see something in a different way? And was there a point in my day where I was able to have a conversation where someone else might change the way that they look at the world, or the way that they perceive themselves or try something new in their day? I think that to me is a is a major mark of success, because it's less think we can all be better individually. But how are you? How are you helping other people do that. So that's a big one for me.
Pete Kadushin 31:47
What's really joyful for me is hearing themes, and then having them show up explicitly throughout these conversations. And so learning for learning sake came up when we were talking about your performance journey. And then learning for the striving and the leveling up in the achieving showed up as well. And then the gift of sharing what you've learned with others was another huge theme. And so then, now, you're very on brand, not just with O2x, but also with yourself, which is exciting. I'm also wondering if Adam and Paul and the guys at HQ are like going to give you $1 every time you say 1% better, because we could just keep squeezing it in here.
Ali Levy 32:30
A lot. It's so true, though. I mean, it's one of those things that before I worked it out to accept, you know, you think of things in that way. But that's not really how it frame it. And then you see it in action. And you're like, Oh, no, this. It works. It's true. But, but yeah, no, I think the themes are the themes are definitely there. And I think, honestly, that's like, through a lot of a lot of work. And I think transitioning out of a sport forces, you are transitioning out of anything that you've done for, you know, at the time, when I was leaving skiing, it was over half of my life, I really got hit with some pretty heavy questions as a 20 year old, like, who like what's important to me? If I'm no longer having identity as a sphere? What can I find joy in? And how do I really look at the world. And so that's a lot of those things have come through because of really taking some deep dives of like, Alright, like I need to figure out if I'm no longer alila skier, like, what, what motivates me what drives me What, what really was about skiing that I loved. And so that's a lot of those themes have come through from that from that work.
Pete Kadushin 33:39
And that's not always In fact, it's definitely not always comfortable to have to ask those questions, particularly when you're 20. And maybe every 20 year old should have to answer those questions. But we actually had Kirsten Cooper on earlier in one of the another episode, a former professional downhill skier. And she's now building a platform for athlete retirement, and was really speaking directly to the that feeling of doing something at a really high level, so early in your life and then going like, my 12 year career is over at 20. Yeah, now.
Ali Levy 34:18
It's a challenge.
Pete Kadushin 34:20
It's the challenge and the opportunity, you've been able to understand yourself in a way that we wouldn't have otherwise. And I know a lot of 20 year olds who didn't ask those questions, and maybe you're still looking for those answers, not knowing. But it didn't come without effort and discomfort. I imagine.
Ali Levy 34:40
Oh, yeah. I asked those questions when I was 20. I don't think I answered them until I was probably about 32.
Pete Kadushin 34:46
On the good news is we always just keep asking, right there's there's the answer for now, but there's not the answer forever. Exactly. There was one piece that I want to pick on just a second not pick on right but Pull out, the you pointed towards the 1% better, sometimes being something like I connected with a friend. And they think that when we're thinking, we're talking about defining success, it's really easy to think of success as more money, further up the podium, more weight on the bar today than yesterday. And then those concrete ways of defining progress towards a goal. I'm closer to the top of the mountain. And it's useful to recognize that first of all, all of this is made up anyway, right? It's all invented in terms of what's valuable. And so if we get to start from scratch, that we could also define success as having just been really connected with someone, or taking the opportunity to help shift somebody's perspective or sit with them while they're in their own sock. Right. They're having a terrible day. And I didn't fix it, but I at least was there with them. So they weren't alone, which aren't things that are going to show up on the box score, unless I decide to create my own scorecard.
Ali Levy 36:04
Yeah, no, I mean, I think I think that's, that's a big part of it is you really have to, you have to do the work and figure out what what drives you. And again, I mean, I think it all goes back to that. Like, we're all, we're all only as good as we are individually, but you really like you need the people around you. And I think being being a part of that world and helping you help one person get a little better, they're going to pay it forward and help another person get a little better. And I would only the only reason I'm I was able to accomplish anything in skiing is because of coaches that I had, and because of mentors and teachers, and they did that for me. And I think that's like such a huge piece of it is, is what are you doing to help foster that and help other people in whatever arena or area or whatever they're trying to do. Not only perform better, but I think live live better and be happier is a big, I think that goes into performance for sure. But that's that's it for me.
Pete Kadushin 37:08
One, it's really, I'm never very sneaky about it. When I tell folks up front, when I start working with them, I mean, you I want you to be a happy, healthy performer. Because happy healthy performers are better at performing. And also, at some point, whatever your performance is, you're not going to be doing it anymore. And if you're not doing it anymore, I want you to be able to transition into the next thing, take the skills with you. And live a life of meaning and joy that's not contingent on having put a ball in the net. or fill in the blank, right crossing the finish line. doing really cool tricks and aerials off the off the ski jump all of that. And so it's really exciting to hear your own journey having mirrored some of that. But then also, again, the the key theme of being able to pass it on, and really help people absorb that lesson a little bit faster. I also love how you've turned it around and asked me questions.
Ali Levy 38:06
Yeah. Oh, it's this is? It's I could I mean, I think yeah, it's all about learning. Everyone's got different perspectives. And no, I know you bring you bring a lot to a lot of I still use your good better how method of going through going through performance. So
Pete Kadushin 38:25
it might be useful. I was, I was actually curious. When we're thinking about reflection, because it's come up a couple of times now. What does reflection look like for you, whether it's a daily practice or on that broader arc?
Ali Levy 38:42
In terms of like performance, reflection, or just general
Pete Kadushin 38:45
I'm gonna leave it wide open for you, you take it every direction that you want,
Ali Levy 38:50
oh, man, then like a constant state of reflection. Because I think there's just there's, I think there's a, there's definitely a line, you can't always be looking at what happened before you have to kind of draw the line in the sand of, Okay, this happened and how am I going to move on from it, but I think that that idea of leaving with a plan is the key of reflection. So you have to, you know, we've talked about this, whether it's like a debrief or like an reo in the military terms, like after action reviews, things like that. It's like, if you're going to reflect on something that's happened to you, it can be a dangerous path if you don't have a stop point to it and leave with a plan. So I think, you know, there's the, you can just always think of like, well, if this has happened, I would have done this or I should have done this or there's there's kind of dangerous ways to reflect and then I think for me, it's always about Okay, what happened, what went wrong, what went right, but what am I gonna do about it now, and what what lessons can I take from that and move forward, whether in the same category or, you know, can I use something that I learned from one experience to foster positive growth in another experience? And I really, I think the importance there is like the so what have you know, this happened, this is how I handled it good batter good, bad or ugly. This is what I'm gonna do about it. And this is this is either going to recreate that in the future or go a different direction. So I think that that so what question is, is pretty key in the reflective piece for me. And I think that's really, really hard. Like I, I think, you know, we're, we're human beings. So we're, we tend to think back about things and it's really hard to just be like, okay, no more, no more thinking about that. What are we going to do about it? I think that's the the challenge and the skill.
Pete Kadushin 40:49
Interesting. I I've never thought about reflection as being dangerous. And I think it immediately connected for me because I'm a big fan of boundaries. Nikah, either physical thresholds or mental thresholds that say, you know, before this thing, this is what I'm doing now, after this we've moved on. And one of the powers of reflection for me when it's systematic, is regardless of what I'm reflecting on, whether it's performance, or it's training for something. Being able to say I've done what I need to do in terms of learning a lesson, I could continue to ruminate. And maybe that's the distinction is rumination versus reflection, I could continue to go back and re litigate in my mind, I could have said this thing in between songs during open mic night. And instead, I said that, and that was not funny, and everybody didn't laugh. And now that's it over and over and over again, which is a ton of wasted energy. And so finding a way to create that threshold where I've done the reflection, I know what I can do different next time I have a plan, I've left with the plan. And now I have permission to let it go. And I've done it in a way that's very clear. So that that voice in the back of my head that screaming, you need to think more about this, or else something terrible is gonna happen next time. You can like wave to that voice and smile and say, Hey, thanks for thanks for being there. Appreciate you trying to help. But I already did the work. And now it's time for me to just like, go enjoy time with my family or friends. That's huge.
Ali Levy 42:23
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right, though. Maybe it's rumination is that is that's the that's that's the dangerous the dangerous side of it is, is when you're just kind of thinking about it. Not not making any plans to move forward with it.
Pete Kadushin 42:38
Because we just we swirl on the things that didn't go well, instead of focusing on what's usually the 96 or 97% of what did go well. And the more you pay attention to something, the bigger it gets. And so now all of a sudden you walk away, and by the end of the night, you're laying in bed, you haven't done your loan, slow breathing. So now it's one in the morning, I'm speaking from personal experience, and you what could have been a pretty good experience, you know, a pretty good workshop or something of that nature. Now, all of a sudden, it was like, it was terrible in my mind. And I'm terrible. And the next one's going to be terrible, too. And there's absolutely no value to that. Yeah. And so when we, when I'm thinking about reflection, or after action review, it's really about creating the structure so that I can get what I need out of it. And then that's it, I can move on is otherwise my mind left to its own devices is not always my friend. Is that different, though, from sort of the non performance based reflection?
Ali Levy 43:48
Um, I think probably yes and no, right. I think I think I think there's always something to learn. I think that's the key of, of any type of reflection. And maybe maybe if you're reflecting on something that's not a performance based reflection, you're just kind of thinking back on, on an experience that you had and reflecting on that. I think there's still some some piece of it that's like there's there's some reason that you reflect on certain things or the certain memories that continue to come. Come back into your mind whether it's a super positive experience or, or a less positive one, there's, there's always something about that, like there's certain things that are just like, vivid, vivid memories or reflections of certain things. And I think it's, it's because those are the moments that you learn to either something about yourself or something about the world around you. There's always some kind of learning that comes from reflection. And I mean, I don't know that's a it's a very good question because that's a it's hard to it's honestly, it's once I think once you look at reflection from a systematic way, it's hard not to so Even from some of those things that I probably would reflect on normally, once you once you have it in your head to do in a systematic way, it's hard for me to make the distinction.
Pete Kadushin 45:09
The neural pathways are grooved deep for ya!
Ali Levy 45:13
yeah, they're done.
Pete Kadushin 45:16
I want to highlight that question that you, you so elegantly slid into that answer around. So what? That it really speaks to me that we can continue to optimize without considering what the target is. Or we can get closer to the bull's eye, but we may not have ever considered what the bullseye is. Or maybe we thought about it when we were eight, but have not updated our target. And since then, and so that for me coming back to that, how do we define success? There's the small wins, there's the process oriented ideas. And then I think it's really critical that we come back and always are asking that question. So what in service of, you know, fill in the blank? Because if I'm not asking that question, I might find it that I've very efficiently and very effectively gotten someplace I didn't want to go, we're gonna start to wrap up, because I want to be mindful of your time. And so if there was a practice, or a little experiment, because we've covered a lot of ground today, if there was a practice, or an experiment that you could recommend to me so that I could try on, test out, or better understand myself from a mental perspective. What might that look like? Coach me up Ali, let's do this.
Ali Levy 46:34
I think I think for me something, you know, outside of the kind of the tangible skills like breathing or visualization or, or things like that, I think, better understanding really comes from the activity of figuring out the, we call it kind of like, like, Bs and dues, but really coming up with, like, you, if you were to sit down and write your legacy 20 years from now, what, you know, what does that look like? Not from not from your achievements, not from your successes, maybe from your successes, but not strictly from like, I you know, won this award or, you know, accomplished X, Y or Z but but really like, fundamentally, what would you want that to be in terms of how you like, how are you as a as a person, you know, not just what you're doing, but how are you? day to day and I think really digging deep into that with people and figuring out, okay, if you want to be known as someone who always says yes, if they, if a friend approaches you to like go on a hike, or go on a bike ride or you know, do something out of your comfort zone. That's your that's your be like, I want to be that person. And then breaking it down to Okay, what are you going to do today? That if you want to bet it tonight, so did I did I live into that legacy that I live in to being that person? Did I do something that got me that would, that would help me get there? So I think for me, it's helping you kind of figure out and helping athletes and tactical athletes kind of figure out what like, Who am I like, what do I want to be known for? But then what am I gonna do about it? I think that would be. That'd be like the foundation and the fundamental starting point.
Pete Kadushin 48:19
It's so stinkin systematic. I like as I'm thinking about the follow up question. And I like to point out, I could have been mindful and present, and not thinking about what I was going to ask next. And you followed up the what's your legacy? And then you shifted from not just what do you want to achieve? What resume legacy going to look like? And instead shifted more to the relational? How do you want to be in relationship to the people that are most important to you along that journey over the next 20 years? 40 years? Fill in the blank? You followed it up, though, then with what is that? If that's your be? That's how I want to be in this world? Then let's systematically work that backwards to what are the actions you're going to take and not just take in an ambiguous timeline. But what are you going to do today? to be that person today? Yeah. And this really pushes on an illusion that I think we hold on to because it feels more comfortable, which is I'm going to be that person one day. When if I decided that I was going to take action today, to be more like the person I want to be in 20 years, I might find that I'm actually not quite that far away from actually living that experience of being that person, which is exhilarating and terrifying at the same time.
Ali Levy 49:39
Exactly.
Pete Kadushin 49:40
How does this ripple out? So if I do this exercise today, I sit down, I think about my legacy. I isolate a few ways of being and then I think about what I can do differently today in order to live into those what might change if I was then going to look at my scorecard and And design a scorecard to measure that, well, what might I be paying attention to?
Ali Levy 50:05
Yeah, I think that's, that's a, that's a great question. I think it gives people it empowers people to take a lot more control of what is seemingly uncontrollable. So, you know, whether it's job demands, or, you know, performance demands, or or whatever those things are, that are seemingly, there's some, there's some things that are out of your control, that really empowers you to figure out what are you in control of. So I think the end of the day, you know, if you're able to, you know, write down in your, in your journal, or you have your performance kind of notebook there, it's like, what did I do today to, to live into my legacy? And I think that really, like, there's something so powerful about having that tangible recognition of like, yeah, like, I'm proud to have accomplished, you know, whatever that may be, like, I did a great workout. Like, that's something I took control of, in my day and feel like I kind of took took the time for, for me to live into what what I want to be. And so I think part of its, you know, what were you how can how in control? or What were you able to control out of your day that sometimes feels uncontrollable, and I think it gives you a sense of purpose in a big way. So kind of measuring, hey, did I feel like I had a sense of purpose today or, or not? And I think that's a powerful question that we don't always ask, ask ourselves, but it's a you know, it's a pretty small, it's a big question, but it's, you know, can do it on a scale of one to five, and it's just, you know, every day, adding those little things that you do up to say, hey, did I did I hit that target? Or? Or how far off was I? And why was I off? Because there's gonna be days where you're like, man, I handled this situation, like, so far out of the way that I wanted to be, in the end what I wanted to do with it, there's going to be days, but maybe you did something else that allowed you to live into a different part of, of where you want to be in one, why do you want that legacy to be so I think a lot of is just empowered, I think it empowers people to really take control of, of what they're doing every day. And like you said, like, we think of goals. And we think of these really like lofty long term, achievement and successful like, we live in a society that's just like driven by driven by like long term success. And you know, whether it's financial or like, jobs, or performance outcomes are always driven by something else. And it really allows you to take control of like, I can dictate what a successful day looks like, to me, because of where my values are. And I know like, I know what I value. And I know, maybe it's like showing up on time to an event because I really value. Like that's a that's a strong value. For me. It's just being like, having integrity with my timing. And so if I know that I can show up on time, to everything I do today. Like that's a that's a big win. And if I can't, then maybe why not? Like what what got in my way today that that might impact that for for tomorrow?
Pete Kadushin 53:11
It, it always comes back to leave with a plan. And in between, there's really this alignment. It's a conversation about alignment, right to get a sense of the legacy or the vision, the who you want to be. And then rather than leaving it there, because if I reflected on, am I living my legacy today, without having taken it any deeper, that's going to be a really tough question for me to reflect on. And I probably will only do it once, and then never come back to it. And instead, you've pushed me and hopefully push the listeners to consider what do the actions that speak to that being look like? And then I can measure those. I can measure the number of times I took an action did I work out today? Or did I not? And if my physical health is important, right, that's a really clear did I do in order to be one one for me that I try and focus on that's very non performance related, is whether or not I reached out to someone that's important to me, and try and do it each day. And just offer up a little bit of gratitude. It's a great one, because on my worst day, I can still be grateful for the help that I've received or the people that I'm connected to. And if I don't think about if instead I think about being a person who's grateful, and a good friend, good sibling, all of that, why don't have a measurement for that. How good was I don't know. But if I look at was there a discrete action that I could take, choose that action and then measure myself to that, suddenly I can really reveal whether or not I'm living the way I want to or if I need to shift so that I can be more in alignment. Which exactly, I just love that. You're able to take What could be these really highfalutin sort of esoteric ideas? And then immediately tethered them to think? Did I breathe tonight? Or not? on purpose? Right? Did I care for somebody else today? Or not on purpose? So to bring us home, I'm always curious about the beautiful moment. I think all of us, whether we're athletes or otherwise, are drawn to some performance domain. And the beautiful moment that happens in that context. And so you get to pick the performance domain. Right. But I'd like you to paint a picture of a beautiful moment, and then tell me why it's beautiful to you.
Ali Levy 55:45
This is a big question. There's a few. I have a few, a few, a few that definitely come up. But I think I think probably one that will always like, always stick in my head is is the my ski run man I made the US ski team with. And it's honestly, it's actually not for the achievement that it was. And you'll probably laugh because this goes right in line with everything else. But But the reason it was, it was such an amazing moment, a beautiful moment was that it was supposed to be my last ski race ever. And I was just going to say goodbye to all my friends. I was supposed to start college and that was gonna be my last hurrah. And I had a ski coach named Brian who was just like, so dedicated and would just he knew I was, I think he knew I was going to do better than I thought I was going to. But he also knew I thought it was gonna be my last race. And so he made it like the most fun, just weekend, ever. And he would ski down the side of the course my whole run. Like every run, I took just screaming words of encouragement, and probably some other words too, but I only chose to hear the words of encouragement. And yes, was so excited for me and to be there. And, and just to kind of have that culmination. And I remember skiing through the finish line. And he came and like tackled me in the finish area out of excitement, because I think he knew that I'd won the race. And I was like, oblivious and had no idea. I knew I'd skied well, but he knew and he was so excited. And it was one of those moments where I like got to call my brother who was my, like, the reason that I started skiing to begin with, and tell him that I had made the ski team and, and call my parents and tell them after their like years and years of dedication to the sport that they thought I was crazy for doing and all they wanted for me to like, keep my teeth and my knees intact. And that for me is like such a such an amazing and you know, use using your words a beautiful moment, because it was just one of the most fun ever. And it was a really realization that like, if you're having fun and you're happy, and you're just going with the flow and doing kind of executing on what you know you can do, you can achieve a lot more than if you're not. And also just to be able to be there with some people that I had known for so so long and had put it equally dedicated to my own success. Was was probably I think one of the most powerful things that could ever happen.
Pete Kadushin 58:21
Wow. I'm just consistently humbled by hearing hearing stories like that. So thank you for sharing. Yeah, I've got one question left, hit me. Where can people find out more about you or follow you on the socials or you you tell us so that we can do I can put in the show notes and then people can go say hi.
Ali Levy 58:48
Perfect. Yeah, well, probably the best place is through O2X. So Instagram @o2xhumanperformance and our website is o2x.com. I'm on there, you can you can email me You can message me I can do whatever you need to. But that's probably the best the best way to reach me. And yeah, and then I can throw you any other information but but that's you'll find you'll find me and a few other people on there.
Pete Kadushin 59:18
People are gonna be reaching out so that you can help design their scorecards so that they can do a better job of measuring their own success.
Ali Levy 59:26
I love it. I will have that conversation any day. I think that's what it's all about.
Pete Kadushin 59:32
Ali, this has been so much fun. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being so generous with your your passion and and the knowledge that you can share. It's been a lot of fun. I hope you've enjoyed yourself too.
Ali Levy 59:44
This is the best. I will talk mental performance all day every day with anyone who wants to have the conversation. So thank you. It's been it's been great to do.
Pete Kadushin 59:54
All right. That's it for today. If you liked this episode, make sure you subscribe to the show. And don't forget to rate and leave a review. If you want to dive deeper into the concepts and concrete practices from today, I'm talking access to show notes and the transcript for the episode and a whole bunch of other mental training goodies, head over to MTL dot Academy. That's MTL dot Academy. Each week after the episode goes live, I'll also be sharing a worksheet that's going to help you level up your mindset and mental skills. And the only way to get access is through our weekly newsletter. So when you hit the bottom of the webpage, don't forget to sign up for that too. Until next time, be well
